Hill bow crack repair options?

[SpicyChickenOil]

It seems like there was a crack at a bad place. I did not expect to see two pins when I bought it from an auction.

Is this a bad repair? Or is it appropriate? What can be done on this bow, and how will such a damage&repair influence the playability/value?

 

This is a bow by W.E Hill&Sons, William G Johnson.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, SpicyChickenOil said:

 I did not expect to see two pins when I bought it from an auction.

Why not? They are shown on the condition report ... also Amati condition reports have a comments box which you haven't shown. Perhaps they even made reference to the pinned head/

This is the sort of repair to a head break that was carried out by the Hill workshop in times gone by, and generally it holds well. You can't re-do it without damaging the bow further. 

There should be no effect on playability, but the value is about 1/5 of the value of the bow in undamaged condition.

[Dwight Brown]

I’m with Martin here. I wouldn’t touch it as far as the pins go. Play it and enjoy. Unless I starts to come apart at a later date I would not have the head splined.

DLB

[Mr. Bean]

Insurance companies may demand obviously visual repairs to bows that they paid out the cost of repair and the loss of value for, perhaps in preventing fraud with future re-insurance.

[Dave Slight]

5 hours ago, SpicyChickenOil said:

It seems like there was a crack at a bad place. I did not expect to see two pins when I bought it from an auction.

Is this a bad repair? Or is it appropriate? What can be done on this bow, and how will such a damage&repair influence the playability/value?

 

This is a bow by W.E Hill&Sons, William G Johnson.

 

 

 

 

 

When buying from auction, it’s important to understand what you are actually buying. This goes for any auction, but even more so for any type of affordable/T2 type situation.

As for your first point, it is clearly shown that there are issues with the head, being both a crack and pins. 

The pins were the standard type of repair for a broken head. The bow has already been repaired, you do not need to have anything done, unless at a future time they happened to fail.

A well pinned head rarely makes a difference to the playing qualities of the bow.

A broken head severely affects the value, saleability and desireability of a bow. It can be a way to get a good playing bow, at a fraction of the cost of a perfect example.

[SpicyChickenOil]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:32 AM, martin swan said:

Why not? They are shown on the condition report ... also Amati condition reports have a comments box which you haven't shown. Perhaps they even made reference to the pinned head/

This is the sort of repair to a head break that was carried out by the Hill workshop in times gone by, and generally it holds well. You can't re-do it without damaging the bow further. 

There should be no effect on playability, but the value is about 1/5 of the value of the bow in undamaged condition.

Thank you Martin, but I am still confused why do they have the pin, because on the condition report  the crack is not at the tip( but the pins are), why are they having two pins on the unbroken part of the bow

[martin swan]

The crack isn’t shown in detail on the condition report - it only indicates the position of the start of the crack which travels all the way from the back to the front of the head. Possibly it was described in the text?

 

[Mike_Danielson]

They appear to be metal pins which means the glue joint is weak between the pins and the wood.  This is not the way this tip repair would be done today, and it violates all the modern rules of repair since you want the reinforcement to be as close to the tensile axis as possible to prevent the crack from re initiating.

As is said. "let sleeping dogs, lay."  I cannot see the glue crack; so, the crack was correctly closed and the evidence of a break gone except for those pins.  Without the pins, you would not be able to know there was a repair--which points out the danger of buying a bow with repairs well-concealed.

I would play it happily until there is an accident and the crack reopens--then it can be repaired again in more modern ways (but probably without the metal pins which would be removed)

Mike D

[uguntde]

I have several bows with good repairs to the head. If you want the bow to play and not as an investment this is perfectly fine. A splice is even better and I sometimes wonder why bow makers don't put a spline there in the first place as it stabilizes the head. For investment originality anf perfection is what counts.

[SpicyChickenOil]

16 hours ago, martin swan said:

The crack isn’t shown in detail on the condition report - it only indicates the position of the start of the crack which travels all the way from the back to the front of the head. Possibly it was described in the text?

 

No, there is nothing written in the text and I did not see any sign of a long crack on the head.

[martin swan]

14 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

 This is not the way this tip repair would be done today, and it violates all the modern rules of repair since you want the reinforcement to be as close to the tensile axis as possible to prevent the crack from re initiating.

We see so many of these repairs that it’s hard to believe it’s a bad method.

I believe these pins are grooved so it would be an extremely bad idea to try to remove them.

[Dwight Brown]

49 minutes ago, martin swan said:

We see so many of these repairs that it’s hard to believe it’s a bad method.

I believe these pins are grooved so it would be an extremely bad idea to try to remove them.

The pins may even be threaded with a die to screw in.  It may even have been mended by Hill, I'm pretty sure that this was their method at one time.

DLB

[martin swan]

31 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

The pins may even be threaded with a die to screw in.  It may even have been mended by Hill, I'm pretty sure that this was their method at one time.

DLB

Yes it’s a Hill shop repair

[Dwight Brown]

Just now, martin swan said:

Yes it’s a Hill shop repair

Even better!

DLB

[Jeff White]

The Hill shop mainly used a screw type of pin, just leave it.

[Rico Suave]

Perhaps questions better suited to it's own Thread, but in regards to using threaded Pins for repair;

Why did this method (seemingly) fall out of favor?

Would Loctite 401 and 3-48 (.0990"), or 4-40 (.1112") screws, be suitable (and durable) for this type of repair?