Dianadelphine Posted Thursday at 02:33 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 02:33 PM (edited) Hello I have a great grandfather’s violin that reads Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1639. The last 2 digits are handwritten. Also has a made in Germany label inside. Is it an original or a copy? Edited Thursday at 02:37 PM by Dianadelphine Add photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violinnewb Posted Thursday at 05:10 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 05:10 PM 2 hours ago, Dianadelphine said: Also has a made in Germany label inside. There is your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR. S Posted Thursday at 05:37 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 05:37 PM it is a copy made in Germany, probably late 18th to early-mid 20th century. Probably patterned after a Nicola Amati instrument (b 1594 - d 1684, who is usually considered the best of the Amatis. This German maker/shop probably made copies of several Amati Instruments, thus the hand written last 2 digits identifying the year of the Amati that was copied, they could print up one label and use it for several instruments, or they just did that to emulate old Cremona labels that often did this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted Thursday at 06:11 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 06:11 PM Sorry, it's not a copy of anything, just a random label thrown in a German trade violin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted Thursday at 07:26 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 07:26 PM 1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Sorry, it's not a copy of anything, just a random label thrown in a German trade violin I agree, these violins bear no resemblance to an actual Amati. Those who claim they are copies, clearly have never seen an Amati, or probably any good violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted Thursday at 09:45 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 09:45 PM 2 hours ago, Wood Butcher said: I agree, these violins bear no resemblance to an actual Amati. Those who claim they are copies, clearly have never seen an Amati, or probably any good violin. Yes, there are tens of thousands of these not Amati copies with apocryphal Amati Fahrkarten. Reminds me of an anecdote I told some years ago https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328294-emanuel-adam-homolka/&do=findComment&comment=586038 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted Friday at 03:25 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 03:25 AM 12 hours ago, Dianadelphine said: Hello I have a great grandfather’s violin that reads Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1639. The last 2 digits are handwritten. Also has a made in Germany label inside. Is it an original or a copy? It's an original German commercial violin. Trump's not the first or only one in the world to habitually lie. And violin buyers aren't the world's only fools who stubbornly prefer an appealing lie to unappealing truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob K Posted Friday at 08:20 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 08:20 AM 'Made in Germany' on a label would typically be found on violins from the inter-war period c1920s-30s. (i.e. usually not found before WW1 or after WW2 apart from modern post unification instruments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slight Posted Friday at 01:20 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 01:20 PM Not necessarily. Different countries had their own rules about imported goods bearing the country of origin, and at different periods. That Made in Germany is written in English, doesn’t mean it was imported to England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slight Posted Friday at 01:22 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 01:22 PM 19 hours ago, DR. S said: it is a copy made in Germany, probably late 18th to early-mid 20th century. Rather a wide range there from the late 1700s to 1950! The violin will be from circa 1900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violinnewb Posted Friday at 02:23 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 02:23 PM 20 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Sorry, it's not a copy of anything, just a random label thrown in a German trade violin How do you know its not just a very poor copy? My 9 year old tries to "copy" works of art all the time, they end up looking rather horrible and no resemblance to the originals, are these not "copies?" Just asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob K Posted Friday at 02:28 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 02:28 PM 1 hour ago, Dave Slight said: Not necessarily. Different countries had their own rules about imported goods bearing the country of origin, and at different periods. That Made in Germany is written in English, doesn’t mean it was imported to England. 1 hour ago, Dave Slight said: The violin will be from circa 1900. Yes, my apologies. In Britain the requirement to include 'Made in Germany' was introduced for imports following the Merchandise Marks act of 1887. In the USA the labelling requirement of the McKinley tariff act was amended in 1914, to include the words 'made in' and the country of origin. After 1921 the country of origin also had to be written in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrola_asarifolia Posted Friday at 08:09 PM Report Share Posted Friday at 08:09 PM 5 hours ago, violinnewb said: How do you know its not just a very poor copy? My 9 year old tries to "copy" works of art all the time, they end up looking rather horrible and no resemblance to the originals, are these not "copies?" Just asking. Because the people here know how the German violin-making cottage industry was set up. There was no (widespread) attempt to copy anything in particular - just to attach famous name labels to their products. (Which was done I believe by the traders who bought and oversaw the violin fabrication rather than the craftspeople themselves.) A Schachtelmacher ("box maker") in 1910 Saxony had no access to a model he (presumably, he) could have copied. (I have a recent Romanian cello with a fake German name label claiming it's a Goffriller copy when I'm sure it's nothing of the sort - this is still going on today.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violinnewb Posted 5 hours ago Report Share Posted 5 hours ago On 6/24/2022 at 1:09 PM, pyrola_asarifolia said: Because the people here know how the German violin-making cottage industry was set up. There was no (widespread) attempt to copy anything in particular - just to attach famous name labels to their products. (Which was done I believe by the traders who bought and oversaw the violin fabrication rather than the craftspeople themselves.) A Schachtelmacher ("box maker") in 1910 Saxony had no access to a model he (presumably, he) could have copied. (I have a recent Romanian cello with a fake German name label claiming it's a Goffriller copy when I'm sure it's nothing of the sort - this is still going on today.) Meh. I don't deal with absolutes or binary assumptions. Even if it was common practice to slap on a label purporting a copy, unless you know of a more trustworthy source, a generalization does not make a statement necessarily true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avandesande Posted 5 hours ago Report Share Posted 5 hours ago A German cottage violin maker that tried to 'copy' something would starve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted 4 hours ago Report Share Posted 4 hours ago 1 hour ago, violinnewb said: Meh. I don't deal with absolutes or binary assumptions. Even if it was common practice to slap on a label purporting a copy, unless you know of a more trustworthy source, a generalization does not make a statement necessarily true. It has no features of an Amati and reveals no attempt to incorporate any Amatese features. It’s a very standard generic MK/Sch model. Could we possibly agree to elevate Maestronet discussions beyond “meh” …? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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