Ron Teplitz Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 I saw a recommendation for a french polish recipe: 1/2 alcohol (good stuff, not the "hardware store stuff"), 1/2 clear spirit varnish, and a little oil on the polish cloth. I mixed 1 oz Everclear with 1 oz clear spirit, the stuff from International Violin; the varnish curdled and turned into a white blob. What does this mean? Wrong ingredients? Suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Teplitz Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 The Everclear bottle says it's 60% alcohol, so perhaps it's diluted too much by other stuff. If that's the problem, what would be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 It probably depends on what you want to do. The normal (for furniture) French polish is shellac dissolved in alcohol, but I assume you want to use it on a violin. Do you want to use it to varnish a white (unvarnished) violin? I guess it could work, but violin varnish is usually brushed on, not applied with a tampon. Do you want to apply it over the existing varnish on a violin? This is generally frowned on. Regarding the 50/50 alcohol/spirit varnish mix: since spirit varnish is mostly alcohol, diluting it 50/50 with alcohol just yields a more diluted varnish. And some people use the term "French polish" to mean rubbing the varnish of a violin with a pad with straight alcohol on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 60% ethanol! You got the cheap stuff! The good Everclear is 95%. You can do a google search on French Polish, and you’ll find, like Brad said, it’s shellac, on a “tampon” with a little oil. The oil keeps the “tampon: from sticking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Johnson Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 47 minutes ago, Ron Teplitz said: The Everclear bottle says it's 60% alcohol, so perhaps it's diluted too much by other stuff. If that's the problem, what would be better? The 95% alcohol everclear (190 proof), which might not be available where you are. You could try “hand sanitizer grade ethanol” which you can get via Amazon instead. It’s 95% ethanol, 5% DI water, and a trace of an extremely bitter substance as a denaturant. It’s also cheaper because you don’t pay the drinkable alcohol tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Teplitz Posted June 19 Author Report Share Posted June 19 18 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said: It probably depends on what you want to do. The normal (for furniture) French polish is shellac dissolved in alcohol, but I assume you want to use it on a violin. Do you want to use it to varnish a white (unvarnished) violin? I guess it could work, but violin varnish is usually brushed on, not applied with a tampon. Do you want to apply it over the existing varnish on a violin? This is generally frowned on. Regarding the 50/50 alcohol/spirit varnish mix: since spirit varnish is mostly alcohol, diluting it 50/50 with alcohol just yields a more diluted varnish. And some people use the term "French polish" to mean rubbing the varnish of a violin with a pad with straight alcohol on it. This is for final polish on the fiddles I've made and varnished. I'd hesitate to use just straight alcohol, but I've heard of this usage. Would work if used judiciously, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Teplitz Posted June 19 Author Report Share Posted June 19 17 hours ago, Carl Johnson said: The 95% alcohol everclear (190 proof), which might not be available where you are. You could try “hand sanitizer grade ethanol” which you can get via Amazon instead. It’s 95% ethanol, 5% DI water, and a trace of an extremely bitter substance as a denaturant. It’s also cheaper because you don’t pay the drinkable alcohol tax. It's almost impossible to get 190 in California. Will try getting the "hand sanitizer grade" stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Suave Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 On 6/18/2022 at 5:15 PM, Carl Johnson said: The 95% alcohol everclear (190 proof), which might not be available where you are. You could try “hand sanitizer grade ethanol” which you can get via Amazon instead. It’s 95% ethanol, 5% DI water, and a trace of an extremely bitter substance as a denaturant. It’s also cheaper because you don’t pay the drinkable alcohol tax. Would 200 Proof (100%) be better for use in French Polish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 6 minutes ago, Rico Suave said: Would 200 Proof (100%) be better for use in French Polish? As soon as you open the bottle of 200 proof, it’s no longer 200 proof. The stuff absorbs water like crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 7 hours ago, Ron Teplitz said: This is for final polish on the fiddles I've made and varnished... Check out this recent discussion that addresses your situation: Final spirit varnish coat finish - The Pegbox - Maestronet Forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Teplitz Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 2 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said: Check out this recent discussion that addresses your situation: Final spirit varnish coat finish - The Pegbox - Maestronet Forums Thanks for the tip, Brad. Thanks for the info, gents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Suave Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 5 hours ago, FiddleDoug said: As soon as you open the bottle of 200 proof, it’s no longer 200 proof. The stuff absorbs water like crazy. OK, semantics, but I'll rephrase; Would 200 Proof (+/- 99.x%) be suitable for use in French Polish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 10 hours ago, FiddleDoug said: As soon as you open the bottle of 200 proof, it’s no longer 200 proof. The stuff absorbs water like crazy. I've used anhydrous (99.9+%) alcohol for almost 10 years now and it IS much better than 90 or 95% alcohol for shellac based finishes. I haven't had a shellac go bad even when diluted in bottle for well over two years while with water containing ethanol the shellac generally goes bad in a year or less. Alcohol does absorb water but likely not at crazy speed. https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/14392/ethanol-and-water-hygroscopic-equilibrium-concentration I've used this stuff and I go though a liter or so in few years and it still works the same. The amount of water in the air entering the bottle while I pour some alcohol or in the shellac bottle is negligible even at tropical lever RH. 5 hours ago, Rico Suave said: OK, semantics, but I'll rephrase; Would 200 Proof (+/- 99.x%) be suitable for use in French Polish? Definitely! I buy anhydrous bioethanol sold as fuel for fireplaces. Here it contains only traces of bitrex to make it undrinkable, otherwise 99.9% ethanol. No poison like methanol. May still be hard to get in some parts of USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, HoGo said: Definitely! I buy anhydrous bioethanol sold as fuel for fireplaces. Here it contains only traces of bitrex to make it undrinkable, otherwise 99.9% ethanol. No poison like methanol. May still be hard to get in some parts of USA. I have also started using the bio ethanol fuel. The Bitrex can be neutralized with a tiny amount of bleach [see previous threads or Google]. The fuel is easy to buy online, either through places like Amazon, or directly from the manufacturer, such as Regal Flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 9 hours ago, FiddleDoug said: …The Bitrex can be neutralized with a tiny amount of bleach… Does it need to be neutralized for our purposes (violins)? Why? Or do you neutralize it to drink it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 It doesn’t need to be neutralized for violin purposes unless you lick your violins a lot, or perhaps if you were spraying a finish. I suppose if you got it on your hands it might be a problem, as it does leave a bitter residue after the alcohol evaporates. The neutralized solvent doesn’t leave the residue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Bitrex isn't too bad, once you've developed a taste for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Rosales Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said: Bitrex isn't too bad, once you've developed a taste for it I hope you're not in charge of the wet bar at the VSA convention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Jokes aside, I'm not a drinker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 The best discrimination of French polishing that I know of is in a book called the Adventures in Wood Finishing by George Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Richwine Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 37 minutes ago, joerobson said: The best discrimination of French polishing that I know of is in a book called the Adventures in Wood Finishing by George Frank. I came to the violin business full time in 2006 after decades in the furniture trades. Fortunately, I started working for a shop with a decent restoration/ repair department. I thought I knew a lot due to my experience with all sorts of finishes from wax, to brick dust and linseed oil, through faux finishing, to the latest catalyzed offerings. One of the first things I learned in the violin shop was that Frank's approach to French polishing didn't work very well at all on violins. I learned the methods I just posted a while back from the guys in the restoration shop, and they have stood me in good stead for years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 5 hours ago, Michael Richwine said: I came to the violin business full time in 2006 after decades in the furniture trades. Fortunately, I started working for a shop with a decent restoration/ repair department. I thought I knew a lot due to my experience with all sorts of finishes from wax, to brick dust and linseed oil, through faux finishing, to the latest catalyzed offerings. One of the first things I learned in the violin shop was that Frank's approach to French polishing didn't work very well at all on violins. I learned the methods I just posted a while back from the guys in the restoration shop, and they have stood me in good stead for years now. My experience is much the same. Too much oil in Frank's method. I like your methods. I just post this to clarify the difference between what we do on a violin to what the rest of the wood working world thinks of as French polishing. on we go, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Richwine Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.DiLisio Posted June 25 Report Share Posted June 25 A sprinkling of pumice early on helps to level and fill. Benzoin may give a higher sheen and adds a pleasant smell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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