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10 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Thanks Jackson.

So, Genotype: inherited genetics

Phenotype: gene expression influenced by environment.

 

 

That's it! This is why "identical twins" are never quite identical, either in appearance or behavior. Close, but there is an observable difference and it can be important.

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Just now, JacksonMaberry said:

That's it! This is why "identical twins" are never quite identical, either in appearance or behavior. Close, but there is an observable difference and it can be important.

With the twins I have known I could never remember which one is which. 

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1 minute ago, sospiri said:

With the twins I have known I could never remember which one is which. 

Hm, not been my experience. At first glance yes, but there is always something and if I get to know them I can see it after a time. Freckles and moles are always different, but there are other less obvious tells. 

I should mention epigenetic factors are as important as environmental vis a vis phenotypic expression, as we've come to find.

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4 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I should mention epigenetic factors are as important as environmental vis a vis phenotypic expression, as we've come to find.

Changing my environment definitely changed my behaviour. I feel very lucky to live where I do surrounded by fields and trees. Foresters insist on giving me free wood too. Spruce and Maple. And I get free woodworking lessons. I had better make the most of these opportunities.

And summer finally arrived yesterday.

Also having the internet means exchange of ideas, knowledge and information on websites such as this where you can learn from the experts. It's a wonderful thing. We just have to find the right way through the information overload. But I think constant learning is good for body and mind. Positive Epigenetics I suppose?

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20 hours ago, sospiri said:

If a Spruce root system is thousands of years old and covers a huge area, do the trees that share that root system share the same dendrochronology?

Firstly spruce trees don’t share a root system.

Secondly, even if they did, Dendrochronology works by analysing the effect of climate on the growth pattern, not by looking at DNA or genetic components.

So even if you analysed aspen trees, which do share a root system, each generation of trees in Ca specific location would demonstrate a different growth pattern depending on the climate conditions.

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Firstly spruce trees don’t share a root system.

Secondly, even if they did, Dendrochronology works by analysing the effect of climate on the growth pattern, not by looking at DNA or genetic components.

So even if you analysed aspen trees, which do share a root system, each generation of trees in Ca specific location would demonstrate a different growth pattern depending on the climate conditions.

I was asking the question in relation to the  9500 year old spruce root system in Sweden.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko#

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1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Neat article on clonal forestry of Norway Spruce in Sweden (so Sweden Spruce? Haha)

https://annforsci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1007/s13595-020-0920-1

Forestry plantations are often ugly depressing things. When they are planted in straight lines, it's a blot on the landscape. Then they are pulled out of the ground after 30 years and stripped by machines.

Give me old fashioned methods. I watched a video made by a saw doctor a few days ago. Traditional methods are almost a lost art. I do a lot of hand sawing often several hours per day. It's a very good fitness builder and very satisfying when it goes well. 

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Dendrochronology works by analysing the effect of climate on the growth pattern, not by looking at DNA or genetic components.

I think what's most important for makers and players is the physical characteristics of the spruce. Finding the right density, which is more in line with what I have been discussing with Jackson, namely gene expression in relation to growing conditions. Sheltered trees which can reach 100 feet in 50 years. 

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43 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Forestry plantations are often ugly depressing things. When they are planted in straight lines, it's a blot on the landscape. Then they are pulled out of the ground after 30 years and stripped by machines.

Give me old fashioned methods. I watched a video made by a saw doctor a few days ago. Traditional methods are almost a lost art. I do a lot of hand sawing often several hours per day. It's a very good fitness builder and very satisfying when it goes well. 

I agree. I was sharing more for the sake of the discussion on clonal trees, such as happen in nature by various means.

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9 hours ago, sospiri said:

I was asking the question in relation to the  9500 year old spruce root system in Sweden.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko#

That is not shared root system but one single surviving root system that sprouts again and again over thousands of years.

I think cloning (or vegetative propagation) is more interesting for maple than for spruce for violin makers. There is no consistent answer what properties violin makers want in spruce but certainly there are such in maple - great figure. There are folks who do that.

Forresters are mostly interested in fast wood production e.g. good growth with less defects.

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6 minutes ago, HoGo said:

That is not shared root system but one single surviving root system that sprouts again and again over thousands of years.

But do all ancient Spruce forests share a root system? For example, a fallen spruce that is still growing will regenerate along the trunk and the lower branches that become embedded become roots. So one tree becomes two or more.

12 minutes ago, HoGo said:

I think cloning (or vegetative propagation) is more interesting for maple than for spruce for violin makers. There is no consistent answer what properties violin makers want in spruce but certainly there are such in maple - great figure. There are folks who do that.

Forresters are mostly interested in fast wood production e.g. good growth with less defects.

To me, a Forester is someone who maintains the woodland. The new methods are for mass consumption of wood, much of it destined for the pulp mill.

8 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I agree. I was sharing more for the sake of the discussion on clonal trees, such as happen in nature by various means.

I would like to learn more about this.

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52 minutes ago, sospiri said:

But do all ancient Spruce forests share a root system? For example, a fallen spruce that is still growing will regenerate along the trunk and the lower branches that become embedded become roots. So one tree becomes two or more.

I don't think so with spruce what happens here is mostly just a form of regeneration of the single plant. The root system of spruce may sprout new trunk or two but will not "migrate" or grow over larger area. They mention possibility of natural layering of spruce but I think that happens less often and only under very specific conditions but certainly not systematic rooting like strawberries or blackberries. I have never seen spruce layering on it's own in the forest (probably because there is shade, bugs that kill damaged trees and way too much plant competition) and even artificial layering or rooting of spruce offcuts is not simple. That old swedish spruce gows in an open almost arctic area so it developed some new tricks to survive....

Plums (I've got plenty of them in garden) or aspen will sprout new tree from root system few meters from the original tree, if you try to dig it out (move it) you'll find out it has almost no own roots, it just grows from long shallow root of the original tree. Eventually it will develop it's own root system but I'm not sure if they are still interconnected under gorund or not. I ususally cut through the main root if I want to keep and replant the new sprout so it grows new roots faster and I can re-plant it in a year. Same applies to aspen, if you won't cut the sprouts you'll have one big forest in few decades.

52 minutes ago, sospiri said:

To me, a Forester is someone who maintains the woodland. The new methods are for mass consumption of wood, much of it destined for the pulp mill.

I was thinking more of the forestry researchers. Here, the forester maintains the woodland but most of it is not old growth natural forest but managed forests where owners want to maximize profits.

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5 hours ago, HoGo said:

great figure

This is far less important historically than we tend to believe now. And many an excellent maker today doesn't care whether the maple is figured or not. Players, on the other hand, which aren't required to have a detailed knowledge of what makes wood suitable for making, tend to judge more on looks. 

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2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

This is far less important historically than we tend to believe now. And many an excellent maker today doesn't care whether the maple is figured or not. Players, on the other hand, which aren't required to have a detailed knowledge of what makes wood suitable for making, tend to judge more on looks. 

Now that is a subject I like to discuss

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8 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

This is far less important historically than we tend to believe now. And many an excellent maker today doesn't care whether the maple is figured or not. Players, on the other hand, which aren't required to have a detailed knowledge of what makes wood suitable for making, tend to judge more on looks. 

Good looking wavy figured maple wood is better than plain maple for the back plate because it has a lower elastic modulus E and higher density p which in turn produces a lower speed of sound c.  The attached article explains why wavy wood works better besides looking better.

maple wood.pdf

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11 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Good looking wavy figured maple wood is better than plain maple for the back plate because it has a lower elastic modulus E and higher density p which in turn produces a lower speed of sound c.  The attached article explains why wavy wood works better besides looking better.

maple wood.pdf 96.6 kB · 0 downloads

Be that as it may, this was obviously unimportant to a lot of really excellent makers, as evidenced by great fiddles by then still in use that may as well have been made of fenceposts. 

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2 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Be that as it may, this was obviously unimportant to a lot of really excellent makers, as evidenced by great fiddles by then still in use that may as well have been made of fenceposts. 

Maple isn't good for fenceposts because it rots too fast. 

I don't see any advantage of using plain maple other than its low cost. 

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54 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Maple isn't good for fenceposts because it rots too fast. 

I don't see any advantage of using plain maple other than its low cost. 

I'm not suggesting there is any advantage - I'm pointing out a fact of use, that's it. 

But yes, maple makes lousy fenceposts. Maybe that's why they pulled them up and turned them into violins.

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11 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

This is far less important historically than we tend to believe now. And many an excellent maker today doesn't care whether the maple is figured or not. Players, on the other hand, which aren't required to have a detailed knowledge of what makes wood suitable for making, tend to judge more on looks. 

I don't think you should group all players together as you implied.

Some players will immediately play an instrument (in my case just a few seconds) to first see how it sounds and then when they are done will look closely at the construction and wood which might influence their final evaluation.

On the other hand, some players will first carefully inspect the instrument which might bias their evaluation and then play it to see how it sounds.

So there is at least two different groups of players.

This is why I used to believe that double blind playing tests were best way of evaluating the sound character of violins because it completely eliminates the affect of appearance on their evaluations.  But I eventually realized that even blind folded players immediately sensed something was not quite right when they picked one of mine up.

Thanks,

Abby Normal

 

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24 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I don't think you should group all players together as you implied.

Some players will immediately play an instrument (in my case just a few seconds) to first see how it sounds and then when they are done will look closely at the construction and wood which might influence their final evaluation.

On the other hand, some players will first carefully inspect the instrument which might bias their evaluation and then play it to see how it sounds.

So there is at least two different groups of players.

This is why I used to believe that double blind playing tests were best way of evaluating the sound character of violins because it completely eliminates the affect of appearance on their evaluations.  But I eventually realized that even blind folded players immediately sensed something was not quite right when they picked one of mine up.

Thanks,

Abby Normal

 

"Tend to" in my original post, which you quoted. This implies my recognition that not all behave in this way, just the majority (more than half).

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20 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

This is far less important historically than we tend to believe now. And many an excellent maker today doesn't care whether the maple is figured or not. Players, on the other hand, which aren't required to have a detailed knowledge of what makes wood suitable for making, tend to judge more on looks. 

Many makers do care if they manage to sell their instruments and eye-catching wood helps a bit as players are the customers... :-)

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12 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Good looking wavy figured maple wood is better than plain maple for the back plate because it has a lower elastic modulus E and higher density p which in turn produces a lower speed of sound c.  The attached article explains why wavy wood works better besides looking better.

maple wood.pdf 96.6 kB · 4 downloads

OMG. After reading the paper I'd like to get the lab-rats to actually make instrument out of the wood to show something. I don't see any proof of anything in the paper. Just comparison of wood properties of samples from two logs. They somehow assume that higher density is better quality wood based upon citation of another paper. These guys pretend they know what makes great instrument but in reality they never made one or most of them don't even play. I know personally few folks from that university department and they are pure theoretics, they can measure wood samples properties, that's all.

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