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Need help getting value of this Joseph Guarnerius


VeronicaB.
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Any information regarding value and rarity would be appreciated. I am looking to sell this violin, and this is my first stop in my process. I live in Central Connecticut. Thanks in advance.

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  • VeronicaB. changed the title to Need help getting value of this Joseph Guarnerius

Yes, a good set of pictures is needed for us to make a good guess at it. Please see the post at the top on how to photograph an instrument for identification. If you're basing your identification on a label inside, be prepared to be disappointed.

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Still probably worth something. Some people might be disappointed if its not worth millions. Others might be happy to stumble across something thats worth a couple hundred.

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On 5/21/2022 at 6:20 PM, VeronicaB. said:

Any information regarding value and rarity would be appreciated. I am looking to sell this violin, and this is my first stop in my process. I live in Central Connecticut. Thanks in advance.

Welcome to Maestronet!!  Please take good pics of your find (https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/333119-how-to-photograph-an-instrument-for-identifcation-purposes/), and share them with us.  :)

I'll just remind everybody that the prices of Markies and other trade fiddles have been steeply increasing lately, compared to 10 years ago. or so.  Let's not be too hasty.  .

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3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I'll just remind everybody that the prices of Markies and other trade fiddles have been steeply increasing lately, compared to 10 years ago. or so. 

Wishful thinking.B)

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I think she's talking about the higher asking prices on ebay which in now way reflect the value as in the vast majority of cases they never sell, and are just listed at the too high price

This comes from the delusion of many ebay sellers that a violin is worth what it was listed for by another seller, not what it sold for if it even sold.

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8 hours ago, Blank face said:

Wishful thinking.B)

 

6 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I think she's talking about the higher asking prices on ebay which in now way reflect the value as in the vast majority of cases they never sell, and are just listed at the too high price

This comes from the delusion of many ebay sellers that a violin is worth what it was listed for by another seller, not what it sold for if it even sold.

Ummm, no, and nothing to do with eBay buy-it-nows.  The increases show in the prices being paid for Saxon and Mirecourt violins  in auctions including Tarisio and Bromptons, as well as sale prices from "name" violin shops.  Ten years ago, trade violins didn't usually even get offered by such venues.  The demand for antique fiddles has been increasing for years, and the violins are getting older, producing more antiques.  The Chinese market (going both ways) has had an effect as well. 

I'm saying that we shouldn't start dismissing the OP violin as valueless, until we get a good look at it.  :)

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18 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 

Ummm, no, and nothing to do with eBay buy-it-nows.  The increases show in the prices being paid for Saxon and Mirecourt violins  in auctions including Tarisio and Bromptons, as well as sale prices from "name" violin shops.  Ten years ago, trade violins didn't usually even get offered by such venues.  The demand for antique fiddles has been increasing for years, and the violins are getting older, producing more antiques.  The Chinese market (going both ways) has had an effect as well. 

I'm saying that we shouldn't start dismissing the OP violin as valueless, until we get a good look at it.  :)

That's simply not true, on the one hand, and doesn't name precisely what is offered and sold on the other.

Just the term "trade violin" on it's own is unprecise to a degree making it meaningless in this context. There are trade/tradey instruments with labels like Juzek, Roth and their trademarks which were offred ever since in auctions, there are Mirecourts of a certain quality level like good JTL, signed Labertés, Couesnons being always paid well, and on the other hand all the "nameless" or Strd, DG and so on Mnk/Schb of very different grades.

Just to say that all these, without differentiation, are increasing in prices because they are antique is nonsense. Trade violins are paid well when they have a reknown name, a lot of marketing (Juzek or Roth), or if they have a top grade quality. This applies to a small fraction only, all the rest is usually offered in the "a violin 10 quid" realm.

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'fraid I go with Vdm!

Pupils come in and say 'teacher told me to ask for an old violin from Germany at least 100years old'. Show them a new Jay Haide or Paesold and they still turn to the 'old' violin despite the difference in tone.

There is price gap between new violins up to £2500 and the next bracket of, say £6000. Good JTL, etc are increasingly filling this gap

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44 minutes ago, reg said:

'fraid I go with Vdm!

Pupils come in and say 'teacher told me to ask for an old violin from Germany at least 100years old'. Show them a new Jay Haide or Paesold and they still turn to the 'old' violin despite the difference in tone.

This doesn't say much for those teachers, in my opinion.
It is my view, that each instrument should be judged on its own merits, and a decision then taken, if they really want what is best for their pupil.
Just because something is over 100 years old, is no indicator of whether it will be any good, or in a suitable condition. A bad old violin, is still a bad violin. A bad new violin is also bad.

Also, it is worth considering that pupils, are almost never able to get the potential out of any instrument upgrade at that time, and will take years to do so, if they ever can. Sadly, this can put them in a poor position to judge the merits of one instrument against another, or new vs old....
They can be totally reliant on someone else to make a decision.

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57 minutes ago, reg said:

'fraid I go with Vdm!

Pupils come in and say 'teacher told me to ask for an old violin from Germany at least 100years old'. Show them a new Jay Haide or Paesold and they still turn to the 'old' violin despite the difference in tone.

There is price gap between new violins up to £2500 and the next bracket of, say £6000. Good JTL, etc are increasingly filling this gap

There's absolutely nothing "new" about this. I'm remembering well the times when "teacher said never use this new fashion Dominant plastic strings but stay with good old gut" etc., and Jay Haide won't be touched without gloves only.

Like you said "good JTL" and the like were 10 years ago and earlier at the same stage as today, while 9 out of 10 average Markneukirchen Guarneris were and are for the dustbin only. The steep increase (cleaned from usual price inflation) is a propaganda trick as old as trade.

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I agree fully WB

I try and intervene somewhat diplomatically and steer them to what is manifestly better, but often this is not enough to deter them from the 'old' one

Many teachers are stuck in a timewarp

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Blank face said:

while 9 out of 10 average Markneukirchen Guarneris were and are for the dustbin only.

If it isn't suitable for the dustbin, doesn't that automatically qualify it as above average?

In my experience, specialized string instrument dealers in the U.S. don't stock or sell the dustbin-quality Markneukirchen and Mittenwald violins. Those instruments seem to show up more in the inventory of "general" music stores that cater primarily to electric instruments, guitars, and band instruments. 

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20 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

In my experience, specialized string instrument dealers in the U.S. don't stock or sell the dustbin-quality Markneukirchen and Mittenwald violins.

That's a good definition.

 

20 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

If it isn't suitable for the dustbin, doesn't that automatically qualify it as above average?

And this might depend widely from the person you are asking.

 

20 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Those instruments seem to show up more in the inventory of "general" music stores that cater primarily to electric instruments, guitars, and band instruments. 

And Ebay (last but not least).

 

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4 hours ago, Blank face said:

That's simply not true, on the one hand, and doesn't name precisely what is offered and sold on the other.

Just the term "trade violin" on it's own is unprecise to a degree making it meaningless in this context. There are trade/tradey instruments with labels like Juzek, Roth and their trademarks which were offred ever since in auctions, there are Mirecourts of a certain quality level like good JTL, signed Labertés, Couesnons being always paid well, and on the other hand all the "nameless" or Strd, DG and so on Mnk/Schb of very different grades.

Just to say that all these, without differentiation, are increasing in prices because they are antique is nonsense. Trade violins are paid well when they have a reknown name, a lot of marketing (Juzek or Roth), or if they have a top grade quality. This applies to a small fraction only, all the rest is usually offered in the "a violin 10 quid" realm.

Blankie, in another browser tab, I'm looking at a "German Guarneri model violin, mid 20th century" (visually, a typical vintage Bubenreuth trade fiddle, with lightly soundpost-setter chewed F-holes) being offered by a well-known US brick-and-mortar violin shop for $5500.  There's plenty more, including antique Markies with Juzek or Lowendall, or similar trade labels, being offered for similar money at various similar stores.  I'm not the one in error here.  :P

Now back to the more important message, for everyone:  Please Don't Keep Telling Posters That Their Violins Are Worthless, Before We Get To See Some Photographs Of Them.  Thank You.  :)

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Can't blame them...intense responses! ^_^

However...I will add, in case any other newbie happens to be reading...

Labels in these old violins are - mostly - meaningless. Violins vary hugely in price. To ask "how much is my Xxx labelled violin worth?" - without pictures - is impossible to answer.

It's like asking "how much is my Ford worth?"

Year? Model? Condition? Colour? Interior? Mileage? Blah blah blah..and you would still need pictures! :P

 

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