Tarisio- Violin ascribed to Landolfi

[Wood Butcher]

1 hour ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

Sure, but they did, and therefore, in this case, I would tend to believe a dendro-induced 'Tbay proforma' more than BF certificate.

Sorry, I thought that was obvious: Because BF are neither omniscient nor infallible, and their certificates can be annihilated by as little as an uncomfortable dendro result (q.e.d). As this is clearly the case with the 'Maggini', why could it not be with the Landolphi?

No other writers of certificates are infallible either. People might do the best they can, but I’m sure mistakes are made.

Its entirely possible in the future that many Tarisio, Beare or Biddulph certificates could be called into question, and so the cycle may go on.

Regarding the Maggini against the Landolphi, what was wrong with one, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true for the other, unless you have more information on this particular violin, which we can’t access.

 

[Wood Butcher]

1 hour ago, Three13 said:

This one doesn't seem to resemble the examples that I've seen that are now attributed to Rogeri - I'd love to know what people think about it...

It looks nice, but a little more crude than some of the Rogeri ones.
I do not know what it is, but it is possible there were other lesser known Brescia makers, whose work was later “upgraded”.

The Brescia makers were no doubt influential, so it could even be an early copy of sorts.

[Giovanni Valentini]

9 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

No other writers of certificates are infallible either. People might do the best they can, but I’m sure mistakes are made.

Evidently.

9 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Its entirely possible in the future that many Tarisio, Beare or Biddulph certificates could be called into question, and so the cycle may go on.

That's what I fear, too!

9 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Regarding the Maggini against the Landolphi, what was wrong with one, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true for the other, unless you have more information on this particular violin, which we can’t access.

Of course not necessarily, but it may explain why people are weary certificates by BF (and others, for that matter).

[Wood Butcher]

2 hours ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

Evidently.

That's what I fear, too!

Of course not necessarily, but it may explain why people are weary certificates by BF (and others, for that matter).

So given this, what is your answer to the problems of certification?

[Giovanni Valentini]

10 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

So given this, what is your answer to the problems of certification?

If only I had a conclusive answer! But by now I usually trust a $200 dendrochronological analysis more than a x-thousand $ certificate, because the former is reasonably hard scientific data, the latter often someone's expensive educated guess, which may be wiped away a few years later - either by dendrochronology, by the expert's declining reputation, or by a simple 'I don't think so'.

It always sends shivers down my spine when I see those instruments that have fallen from grace and makes me wonder how much my own investments are still worth (and for how much longer) where they rely on expert certification. E.g. you may remember a violin not long ago at Tarisio NY that had been a Strad, then a P. Guarneri of V. (all with top certificates) and eventually - after dendro - 'a violin'. How many people must have burnt fortunes over the years with that fiddle (and the cost of the certificates)! And this is by no means a unique case. Practically every major auction now has a couple of such instruments on special offer.

But one can also see the positive side and prey on these misfortunes: More recently, I have been able to buy fantastic instruments in the range of $8k-15k which previously had at least a zero added to their price and, as presumed priceless fiddles, had always received the best care money could buy (and which nobody would have exerted on 'a violin').

I would be interested what the price  of the ascr. Landolphi was in at BF in 2009 - I dare say not in the $15k-22k range. And that virtually invisible repair of multiple bass bar and sound post cracks surely did not come cheap either.

Long story short, I guess my answer would be that certificates which are in constant danger of being worth less than the paper they are written on perhaps ought be given a somewhat lesser role in the pricing of an instrument, whereas its musical qualities should move up on the ladder. Or perhaps not, otherwise there won't be any good instruments left that musicians can afford!

[Blank face]

59 minutes ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

whereas its musical qualities should move up on the ladder

I wonder who will be the respected experts in "musical qualities" thereafter, what will be the costs of their expertise, and what will happen after they'll fall out of reputation. Maybe even by a simple "Sounds like crap IMO."

[Giovanni Valentini]

3 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I wonder who will be the respected experts in "musical qualities" thereafter, what will be the costs of their expertise, and what will happen after they'll fall out of reputation. Maybe even by a simple "Sounds like crap IMO."

That's the beauty - you won't need experts and certificates: Musicians will fight over great instruments and ignore the others. Having said this, a high recommendation for a violin coming from Maxim Vengerov would probably impress me ...

But day dreaming aside: In my blind tasting of instruments I am often surprised how little correlation there is between price and practical aspects such as sound quality and playability (yes, these are subjective, but not entirely!). And the involvement of top certificates doesn't seem to rectify that mismatch but can make it worse, precisely because they don't certify playing qualities.

[Blank face]

11 minutes ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

you won't need experts and certificates: Musicians will fight over great instruments and ignore the others.

Knowing a bit more of reality it would rather be that musicians would start a competition who would like the sound as less as possible to get the lowest price.

And after a while a lot of court cases about overpaying a worser than expected playing instrument. Will be fun indeed.

[Michael Darnton]

The biggest lie players tell: "I'm just looking for tone, I don't care what it is or how much it costs."

They are totally free to do that right now but they can't.

[Derek Law]

2 hours ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

It always sends shivers down my spine when I see those instruments that have fallen from grace and makes me wonder how much my own investments are still worth (and for how much longer) where they rely on expert certification. E.g. you may remember a violin not long ago at Tarisio NY that had been a Strad, then a P. Guarneri of V. (all with top certificates) and eventually - after dendro - 'a violin'. How many people must have burnt fortunes over the years with that fiddle (and the cost of the certificates)! And this is by no means a unique case. Practically every major auction now has a couple of such instruments on special offer.

I have been looking through the Tarisio's Cozio database systematically recently - it strikes me how many Strads there are compared with luthiers from the same period. His output per decade is just just an outlier to everyone else. He (and his sons) might be more productive, but it is probably also driven by many attribution "upgrades". Actually the same likely is true for Guadagnini and del Gesu, and possibly 'filius Andreae'.

Below are just for violins (i.e. excluding violas, cellos and other instruments), number of violins listed for key luthiers in a decade:

Antonio Stradivari - 113, for the decade 1710-1719 (including the c.1710) - this is of course also affected by misattribution into the "golden period". But there are 102 listed for 1720-29, 91 for 1700-09, 82 for 1690-99

G.B. Guadagnini - 84, for the decade 1750-59 (but he might have more in later decades, I only tally up to 1759)

del Gesu - 70, for 1730-1739

Giuseppe Guarneri 'filius Andreae' - 34, for 1710-19

Carlo Bergonzi - 25, for 1730-39

C.F. Landolfi - 24, 1750-59

Nicolo Amati - 21, for 1650-59

Andrea Guarneri - 20, for 1670-79

G.B. Rogeri - 20, for 1690-99

G.B. Grancino - 20, for 1690-99

Carlo Antonio Testore - 20, 1730-39

Francesco Rugeri - 18, for 1670-79

 

 

[Wood Butcher]

The Cozio database is not an accurate inventory of all the violins by those makers.
Many which have not been sold at auction recently, or don't have publicly available records, for example, don't feature in it at all.

[Shelbow]

Yeah Cozio is just a snap shot of info and some of it is quite old. I like it as a reference tool but you need to know it's limitations.

[Giovanni Valentini]

46 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

The biggest lie players tell: "I'm just looking for tone, I don't care what it is or how much it costs."

They are totally free to do that right now but they can't.

Of course it is a lie, certainly regarding the cost, because the budget usually stretches to 20k! Which would be plenty if they would invest time and build up experience and self-confidence.

Regrettably, it just feels so cool to flex your new Gagliano (including certificate) to your colleagues.

[Derek Law]

Sure the database is not complete, and probably more complete for Strad than anyone else, but still, the discrepancies seem way more significant than just coverage issues. Even assuming Strad are much more carefully preserved, I think it is still pretty strong evidence that misattribution is a factor. 

[Michael Darnton]

The Cozio database is constantly updated. It's not complete, but it's the best public resource there is.

[martin swan]

Cozio goes out of its way ro compile a complete inventory of Strads, DGs and Guadagnis. I don’t think it has a similar level of interest in Landolfi!!

[Michael Darnton]

I believe they enter almost anything they get. Remember that they have a huge auction to draw from.

[martin swan]

51 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I believe they enter almost anything they get. Remember that they have a huge auction to draw from.

Agree but with lesser makers they principally list instruments they have sold at Tarisio  whereas with the big names they  fold in all known instruments from all known sources.

[germain]

... I'd say this lot will hit around the $60K neighborhood... you guys can PayPal me your bets... haha

[Shelbow]

14 minutes ago, germain said:

... I'd say this lot will hit around the $60K neighborhood... you guys can PayPal me your bets... haha

Yeah sounds about right to me.

[Giovanni Valentini]

11 hours ago, Shelbow said:

Yeah sounds about right to me.

ca. 60k hammer would probably be the right price for a Landolfi of this quality with multiple soundpost and bass bar cracks, soundpost patch and later scroll. If bidders pay any heed to Tarisio's 'ascribed', I would imagine it to be more in the 30s, i.e., the classic speculative price range of being too cheap for the real thing and way too expensive for an anonymous one.

Has anyone tried it and if so, is it any good?

[germain]

59 minutes ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

 

Has anyone tried it and if so, is it any good?

I’ll be there next weekend 

[Shelbow]

7 minutes ago, germain said:

I’ll be there next weekend 

You can let us know if it's worth 30 or 60k 

Also if you wanted to record a little video of it I can host it as a private video on my YouTube channel for others on here to hear it?

[Wood Butcher]

21 hours ago, Giovanni Valentini said:

ca. 60k hammer would probably be the right price for a Landolfi of this quality with multiple soundpost and bass bar cracks, soundpost patch and later scroll. If bidders pay any heed to Tarisio's 'ascribed', I would imagine it to be more in the 30s, i.e., the classic speculative price range of being too cheap for the real thing and way too expensive for an anonymous one.

Has anyone tried it and if so, is it any good?

If I was a cynical person, I might wonder if you were trying to denigrate the violin, to minimise competition when you bid

[Giovanni Valentini]

2 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

If I was a cynical person, I might wonder if you were trying to denigrate the violin, to minimise competition when you bid

And if I was a cynic, I might begin to wonder whether you are the vendor ...

Luckily, we aren't!

But if you were, what part of what I wrote might induce you to surmise such a thing? The info is taken straight out of the condition report. And, regrettably, my supernatural powers don't stretch to reading people's minds, what they may or may not think/dream/know about the violin.

However, I do wonder what made Tarisio sell it as 'ascribed to', especially because this is not in their own financial interest to demote an instrument unless it is unavoidable. - But I suppose that was the initial question that sparked this discussion (and after nearly 50 contributions, I wonder if perhaps that was Tarisio's true intention?) ...