Selecting top quality woods

[Arsalan]

Hello everyone 

I think one the most important factor to make a high quality violin , is selecting the tonewood, making a violin to proper size and measurements isn’t that difficult after a few builds , also there is some points in the design and shape of the instrument that can increase the sound quality.

anyway , I appreciate if any experienced luthiers explain how to select the woods, it seems , buying online isn’t a great way of getting the woods ! Anyway I appreciate your time in advance for answering my question!
 

[Dave Slight]

I think the most important factor to making a good violin, is knowing what to do with the materials you have. The decisions you make as the maker, will decide the success of the outcome.

That said, when selecting wood, it makes sense to get the best you can. How people may rate it individually, is not always agreed upon, and some may prefer heavily flamed maple, irrespective of the grain straightness, or width for example.

When selecting spruce, it is best to have something with as little runout as possible, the right sort of density (info is out there on the density of some Cremonese instruments), and either an even width grain spacing across the width, or more commonly gently widening towards the outside edge.
Look at the ends of the wedges, to see if it is properly quarter sawn, and not sloping off to one side.
If you can get a one piece top, generally the wider grain would go on the bass side.
 

For maple, I think people approach it differently.
Obviously the flame is the most noticeable aspect, but sometimes figured wood can come from parts of the tree with some gnarly and twisted grain. Personally, I avoid this. Again, I would give consideration to the density, and to the width of the grain.
One piece backs might look like the superior choice, but it’s common to have one edge off the quarter. Depending on how far off it is, this can affect the strength, and also the stability of the piece. A well quartered jointed back probably has the edge in terms of stability, unless you are lucky enough to find perfect one piece backs, from a large tree.

 

If you are buying wood online, ask the dealer some questions, and ask for some extra pictures. Many online dealers only show one side of the wood, and it’s possible the side you can’t see may have satins in the wood, knots, shakes etc.
If you can, get them to weigh it, and give you the dimensions of each edge, plus the widths. You can then use this to calculate the density.
For figure, It’s a matter of personal taste.

Hopefully this helps you a little bit.

 

[James M. Jones]

I strongly encourage a beginner to not purchase top shelf wood , or buy it and put it aside for after a few instruments are completed, chances are the first violin will mostly be an exercise in methods as much as violin making, unless your coming into this work with a considerable skill set in wood working , there will be mistakes. For the most part “good wood” will be in the middle to upper price range .a top with a bit of charismatic variety in grain width  and a less than spectacular flamed back has just as much potential as any “master” grade wood does , if other parameters such as good quarter, density,  little  runout are set as priority. 

That said the first decision of many is wood selection… 

[Michael_Molnar]

I agree not to start with expensive, top grade wood. Show what you have and get feedback from accomplished makers who are open to giving advice.Try to attend VSA meetings and bring along a sample of your work.

[Arsalan]

18 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

I think the most important factor to making a good violin, is knowing what to do with the materials you have. The decisions you make as the maker, will decide the success of the outcome.

That said, when selecting wood, it makes sense to get the best you can. How people may rate it individually, is not always agreed upon, and some may prefer heavily flamed maple, irrespective of the grain straightness, or width for example.

When selecting spruce, it is best to have something with as little runout as possible, the right sort of density (info is out there on the density of some Cremonese instruments), and either an even width grain spacing across the width, or more commonly gently widening towards the outside edge.
Look at the ends of the wedges, to see if it is properly quarter sawn, and not sloping off to one side.
If you can get a one piece top, generally the wider grain would go on the bass side.
 

For maple, I think people approach it differently.
Obviously the flame is the most noticeable aspect, but sometimes figured wood can come from parts of the tree with some gnarly and twisted grain. Personally, I avoid this. Again, I would give consideration to the density, and to the width of the grain.
One piece backs might look like the superior choice, but it’s common to have one edge off the quarter. Depending on how far off it is, this can affect the strength, and also the stability of the piece. A well quartered jointed back probably has the edge in terms of stability, unless you are lucky enough to find perfect one piece backs, from a large tree.

 

If you are buying wood online, ask the dealer some questions, and ask for some extra pictures. Many online dealers only show one side of the wood, and it’s possible the side you can’t see may have satins in the wood, knots, shakes etc.
If you can, get them to weigh it, and give you the dimensions of each edge, plus the widths. You can then use this to calculate the density.
For figure, It’s a matter of personal taste.

Hopefully this helps you a little bit.

 

Thank you very much for your reply , very helpful 

[HoGo]

Each maker has their own measure of what is top grade. But generally, lesser cosmetics devalues wood even if it is perfectly fit to make great sounding instrument. Novice makers often make significant mistakes in their building methods and only after several builds start to have slightly clear view of what's going on. Depending on their schooling they will start developing their own sense of what makes good wood.

[Dave Slight]

4 hours ago, Arsalan said:

Thank you very much for your reply , very helpful 

You are welcome 

[bardia parmid]

The density ratio of maple wood is multiplied by 0.64 to obtain the volumetric weight of spruce wood.

[violins88]

Alireza,

 

I think you mean that mass = density x volume

[Brad Dorsey]

I think he or she means that spruce density is 64% of maple density.  Does that sound about right?

[Don Noon]

50 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I think he or she means that spruce density is 64% of maple density.  Does that sound about right?

While I agree that seems like the intended meaning, I would not use it as a prescription to select wood to match that exact ratio.  I checked my data, and I have used anywhere from 55% to 73%.  Yes, 64% is exactly between my two extremes... but I don't find any deep meaning to that other than 64% is about the ratio of average spruce/maple densities.

[violins88]

Brad, yes, that 0.64 sounds right.

But “Volumetric weight” is NOT a thing. In western science, anyway.

 

Alireza, what is your mother tongue, please?

[bardia parmid]

The density of spruce wood is better to be 0.64 of maple wood. This is an approximate number.. and this approximation was stated by Mr. David Langsather.. I think most of you know him

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. ...https://www.violinresearch.com/violin_128.htm
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.https://www.violinresearch.com/woodselection_010.htm
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[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Alireza kazemi said:

The density of spruce wood is better to be 0.64 of maple wood. This is an approximate number.. and this approximation was stated by Mr. David Langsather.. I think most of you know him

.
.
. ...https://www.violinresearch.com/violin_128.htm
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.
.https://www.violinresearch.com/woodselection_010.htm
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It may be a good average reference, but averages don't say much about the uniqueness of each violin. So if you follow these numbers, you're in the ballpark, but I doubt it can guarantee successful results. But if it works for him, it's fine. What can I say, to each his own. As far as I'm concerned, relying too much on numbers doesn't get you very far.

 

[Randall The Restorer]

2 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

It may be a good average reference, but averages don't say much about the uniqueness of each violin. So if you follow these numbers, you're in the ballpark, but I doubt it can guarantee successful results. But if it works for him, it's fine. What can I say, to each his own. As far as I'm concerned, relying too much on numbers doesn't get you very far.

 

Agreed. 
 
Wise words, Sensei.

Making any musical instrument with natural materials composed of once-living cells is a combination of science and craftsmanship plus luck and/or divine intervention .

Ervin Somogyi is a steel-string guitar maker and teacher who preaches tonewood density ratios and dimension ratios. According to Somogyi and his engineer disciples, my      award-winning, custom designed, all-Koa wood parlour guitar should sound awful. So should Willow backed cellos.

Engineering is a lot about predictability and reproducibility. I think an engineering approach to lutherie is misguided and boring. Many great sounding guitars and violins are the product of necessity or a series of happy accidents.

Thanks for reading.

Yours truly,

Randy 

[bardia parmid]

Time of courtesy and respect 

I am an amateur violin maker. I am interested in making violins, but I am more interested in researching how to make excellent and professional violins. 

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When I saw the method of graduating violin backs according to Mr. Isaac Wikdorczyk's method in his book, my perspective and opinion on violin making changed and became much more precise and profound..

I have been making violins for about twenty years, but I know very well that my knowledge is not enough to comment on his work and method. 

.
But what is very interesting to me is graduating different areas of the violin back. 

.Mr. David Sora, you are a professional, very capable and famous maker. I wanted to know what your personal opinion is about tuning backs according to Mr. Wikdorczyk's method?? With the utmost gratitude... Be happy and healthy

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Alireza kazemi said:

The density of spruce wood is better to be 0.64 of maple wood. This is an approximate number.. and this approximation was stated by Mr. David Langsather.. I think most of you know him

Oh dear!
I haven't gotten around to tap-tuning my saddles yet, since I'm still working on flick-tuning my nipples. Ouch!

 

[Randall The Restorer]

35 minutes ago, Alireza kazemi said:

 

I am an amateur violin maker. I am interested in making violins, but I am more interested in researching how to make excellent and professional violins. 

I have been making violins for about twenty years, but I know very well that my knowledge is not enough to comment on his work and method. 

 

Dear Alireza,

Do not denigrate yourself, your knowledge, or abilities. 
Twenty years - even part-time or casually - is a long time to study and practice any endeavour. 
Think positively.
I am sure that you can teach something worthwhile to any luthier, past or present.

Remember, the research and findings of many well-known “experts” were and will be flawed and heavily biased, then later disproved and disregarded. 
 

Yours truly,

Randy O’Malley 

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Oh dear!
I haven't gotten around to tap-tuning my saddles yet, since I'm still working on flick-tuning my nipples. Ouch!

 

I didn't mean to be cruel, but since you raised the issue... After watching this video, it was enough to not delve into the rest of this gentleman's methodologies. With all due respect, but the risk that he is making fun of us is too great

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, Alireza kazemi said:

Mr. David Sora, you are a professional, very capable and famous maker. I wanted to know what your personal opinion is about tuning backs according to Mr. Wikdorczyk's method?? With the utmost gratitude... Be happy and healthy

Honestly? Total nonsense.

Just to be sure, I am referring to this Vigdorchik. Is he the same person as the Wikdorczyk you mentioned?

[bardia parmid]

21 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

راستش؟ کل مزخرفات

فقط برای اطمینان، من به این ویگدورچیک اشاره می کنم. آیا او همان ویکدورسیکی است که شما نام بردید؟

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[Davide Sora]

42 minutes ago, Alireza kazemi said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

I discovered that book in the eighties, and as a novice, I was fascinated by the idea. But the only useful thing I had gotten from it were the maps of the thicknesses of some Stradivari violins that he reported, which was precious in those times of extreme scarcity of information. I suggest you look at the modal animations of recent times (how a violin moves at various frequencies): in light of these, his whole theory collapses miserably.

[bardia parmid]

51 دقیقه پیش دیوید سورا گفت:

من آن کتاب را در دهه هشتاد کشف کردم و به عنوان یک کار تازه، مجذوب این ایده شدم. اما تنها چیز مفیدی که از آن به دست آورده بود، نقشه های ضخامت برخی ویولن های استرادیواری بود که او گزارش داد، که در آن زمان اطلاعاتی بسیار ارزشمند بود. پیشنهاد می‌کنم به انیمیشن‌های مدال زمان‌های اخیر (نحوه حرکت یک ویولن در فرکانس‌های مختلف) نگاه کنید: با توجه به این موارد، کل نظریه‌ها به طرز بدی می‌پاشد.

Dear Mr. David Sora, thank you for your valuable guidance. You have been a very valuable and great help to me. Your experience as a reputable and capable violinist was a very valuable help to me and freed me from the limbo in which I was trapped. Thank you very much.

[Don Noon]

5 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Honestly? Total nonsense.

Yup.  There's a lot of that kind of stuff out there.

[bardia parmid]

14 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

بله چیزهای زیادی از این دست وجود دارد.

If possible, please explain further.