Varnish Sample...

[Mike_Danielson]

Varnish making is simple and inexpensive if you use a recipe like Hargrave's.  Cooked flaxseed oil with a resin (colophony, for example) has been used for centuries, and they have a known track record.  See Mrs. Merrifield's book.

The uncooked rosinate varnishes like Michelman's are a failure.  This is well established.

The long term performance of cooked rosinate varnishes is unknown.  And I suspect they are very hard (not as flexible) as the Hargrave-like oil varnish.  Long term stability of the color is also an unknown--all that iron in the iron rosinate could be a problem, and use of madder has a well-known problem with color stability.  I would worry that the varnish will eventually alligator or breakdown as in flaking.  ASTM has published methods for rapidly testing varnishes for long term performance--this should be done to this new type of instrument varnish to help establish some kind of confidence.  

But maybe, because you guys are "pure of heart and say your prayers by night", these potential shortcomings will not occur.

Mike D

 

[JacksonMaberry]

9 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Varnish making is simple and inexpensive if you use a recipe like Hargrave's.  Cooked flaxseed oil with a resin (colophony, for example) has been used for centuries, and they have a known track record.  See Mrs. Merrifield's book.

The uncooked rosinate varnishes like Michelman's are a failure.  This is well established.

The long term performance of cooked rosinate varnishes is unknown.  And I suspect they are very hard (not as flexible) as the Hargrave-like oil varnish.  Long term stability of the color is also an unknown--all that iron in the iron rosinate could be a problem, and use of madder has a well-known problem with color stability.  I would worry that the varnish will eventually alligator or breakdown as in flaking.  ASTM has published methods for rapidly testing varnishes for long term performance--this should be done to this new type of instrument varnish to help establish some kind of confidence.  

But maybe, because you guys are "pure of heart and say your prayers by night", these potential shortcomings will not occur.

Mike D

 

Mike,

 Frank Ravatin has shown that non-cooked rosinate varnishes are not doomed to failure outright. At least within a time scale of just under 40 years. Time will tell the rest I suppose. All this said, I still advocate cooking the stuff. 

Flexibility of an oil varnish is far more dependent on the quality and quantity of the oil. Eg - more or less flexible varnishes can be made even with fossil copals and amber, the hardness of which exceeds even the most durable metal rosinates. Your concern on that quarter would seem to be misdirected. 

The stability of organic colorants is known to be variable but in general well below that of the new artificial ones. I have no argument there. For some, perfect colorfastness is not a goal and for others it's in direct opposition. For those that want it to stay the same, there are options. 

Your admonition to test according to ASTM standards has been and will continue to be noted. 

Maestronet is an unlikely place to find people of religion or purity of heart.

 

[ernym]

57 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Varnish making is simple and inexpensive if you use a recipe like Hargrave's.  Cooked flaxseed oil with a resin (colophony, for example) has been used for centuries, and they have a known track record.  See Mrs. Merrifield's book.

The uncooked rosinate varnishes like Michelman's are a failure.  This is well established.

The long term performance of cooked rosinate varnishes is unknown.  And I suspect they are very hard (not as flexible) as the Hargrave-like oil varnish.  Long term stability of the color is also an unknown--all that iron in the iron rosinate could be a problem, and use of madder has a well-known problem with color stability.  I would worry that the varnish will eventually alligator or breakdown as in flaking.  ASTM has published methods for rapidly testing varnishes for long term performance--this should be done to this new type of instrument varnish to help establish some kind of confidence.  

But maybe, because you guys are "pure of heart and say your prayers by night", these potential shortcomings will not occur.

Mike D

 

To be honest, long term stability of these rosinate varnishes being made by relatively new varnish makers is a matter of concern to me since I'm making my final instruments. There are only two makers selling rosinate varnishes that I'm aware of. Nuzio who has been making varnish for around 10 years and Jackson M. I only recently seen.

Then there are veteran makers like Joe R. who has been making varnish for decades. It's a tough decision.

I have noticed a few things about using rosinate varnish compared to the more traditional linseed/resin cooked varnish. I still have more time to decide and experiment with these varnishes.

Now if I could buy some of Melvins varnish it would be game over...: )

[Mike_Danielson]

6 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

 

But maybe, because you guys are "pure of heart and say your prayers by night", these potential shortcomings will not occur.

 

The quotation comes from "The Wolf Man" movie of 1941.  The old gypsy woman foretells what will happen to Lon Chaney, Jr.  I left out the part about when the wolfbane blooms he will turn into a wolf and kill.

Mike D

[JacksonMaberry]

23 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

The quotation comes from "The Wolf Man" movie of 1941.  The old gypsy woman foretells what will happen to Lon Chaney, Jr.  I left out the part about when the wolfbane blooms he will turn into a wolf and kill.

Mike D

Huffing varnish fumes has been known to make violinmakers aggressive 

[joerobson]

One of the great challenges in varnish making is control over the materials....especially the resins used as the properties of the resin vary, though they have the same label.

To end this I decades ago acquired more resin (colophony) than I will use in my lifetime.  This resin was purchased by Louis Condax from Hercules Co. for his research back circa 1970.  It is by now largely a known material to me.

I also use raw resin from Slash and Aleppo pines.

on we go

Joe

[Michael_Molnar]

22 minutes ago, joerobson said:

One of the great challenges in varnish making is control over the materials....especially the resins used as the properties of the resin vary, though they have the same label.

To end this I decades ago acquired more resin (colophony) than I will use in my lifetime.  This resin was purchased by Louis Condax from Hercules Co. for his research back circa 1970.  It is by now largely a known material to me.

I also use raw resin from Slash and Aleppo pines.

on we go

Joe

This is the way to do a controlled experiment. 

[James M. Jones]

Could someone please explain just a little of what resonate varnish is? And what the perceived advantages are over A straight rosin oil cooked varnish? All these years and I’ve never really got it….

[JacksonMaberry]

44 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

This is the way to do a controlled experiment. 

Agreed. Joe told me about his Condax purchase a few years ago, and I followed his example to the best of my ability by getting a pallet from Diamond G. 

[JacksonMaberry]

42 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Could someone please explain just a little of what resonate varnish is? And what the perceived advantages are over A straight rosin oil cooked varnish? All these years and I’ve never really got it….

Rosinate varnish, the way I make it at least: let's call it Jackson Rosinate Varnish or JRV just to be silly. JRV, which is made by cooking, rather than what we can call Michaelman Rosinate Varnish or MRV, which is mixed cold, is in most ways identical to a "straight rosin" or natural rosin varnish (NRV). In both JRV and NRV:

1) The starting materials are rosin and oil.

2) The rosin is neutralized with a base to avoid the issues related to acidity: We do this in preparing rosin for NRV with the addition of lime most often. (See note below for a fun bit of information, marked by an asterisk) In preparing rosin for MRV or JRV, we do this by dissolving the rosin in a base to neutralize, then recrystallizing it with a mildly acidic solution of metal salt. In all cases, the goal is the same: a less acidic or even neutral resin. 

* fun note* - when you lime rosin, you are creating rosinate! The addition of the lime to the hot rosin makes calcium rosinate. So whether you know it or not, if you make a limed rosin varnish and use it, you are already using rosinate varnish. There are two ways to make rosinate: the fusion process (eg liming rosin) and the liquid process (eg dissolving and then precipitating as described above).

James, it's possible you don't lime your rosin. Some people don't. But if you do, you are, like myself and countless others, a rosinate varnish guy. 

Now if limed rosin varnish is already rosinate, why do it by the liquid process? Because not all rosinates are created equal. When you add a metal to a rosin to make rosinate, you are joining them chemically. This changes their properties. For example, liming rosin makes it harder and more resistant to a lot of things (but not water, unfortunately. Calcium rosinate has a slightly increased sensitivity to water). However making a zinc rosinate by the liquid process makes a rosinate that shares the durability and neutrality of limed rosin (again, which is calcium rosinate) without the water sensitivity. 

But the major advantage of the liquid process over the fusion process you're using when you lime rosin is that you can add something more to the mix than just the metal ion: dye molecules. By dispersing a dye into the potassium rosinate solution before precipitating it with your metal salt, you can lock a colorant into the metal rosinate complex. You cannot dump madder into molten rosin, add lime, and get a red rosinate. But you can add a madder dyebath to the liquid rosinate solution, add your metal salt, and get a red rosinate which you can then cook into oil to get a red varnish. An exceedingly transparent one, at that, which you can then use just like your limed rosin and add pigments etc to achieve precisely the color and transparency you want. 

I'm sorry for the essay, but I hope I have given sufficient detail to make the incredible similarities evident while also pointing out the important differences. At the end of the day, it's all rosinate unless you don't lime, in which case you may experience other difficulties relating to acidity in varnish.

 

 

 

[James M. Jones]

9 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Rosinate varnish, the way I make it at least: let's call it Jackson Rosinate Varnish or JRV just to be silly. JRV, which is made by cooking, rather than what we can call Michaelman Rosinate Varnish or MRV, which is mixed cold, is in most ways identical to a "straight rosin" or natural rosin varnish (NRV). In both JRV and NRV:

1) The starting materials are rosin and oil.

2) The rosin is neutralized with a base to avoid the issues related to acidity: We do this in preparing rosin for NRV with the addition of lime most often. (See note below for a fun bit of information, marked by an asterisk) In preparing rosin for MRV or JRV, we do this by dissolving the rosin in a base to neutralize, then recrystallizing it with a mildly acidic solution of metal salt. In all cases, the goal is the same: a less acidic or even neutral resin. 

* fun note* - when you lime rosin, you are creating rosinate! The addition of the lime to the hot rosin makes calcium rosinate. So whether you know it or not, if you make a limed rosin varnish and use it, you are already using rosinate varnish. There are two ways to make rosinate: the fusion process (eg liming rosin) and the liquid process (eg dissolving and then precipitating as described above).

James, it's possible you don't lime your rosin. Some people don't. But if you do, you are, like myself and countless others, a rosinate varnish guy. 

Now if limed rosin varnish is already rosinate, why do it by the liquid process? Because not all rosinates are created equal. When you add a metal to a rosin to make rosinate, you are joining them chemically. This changes their properties. For example, liming rosin makes it harder and more resistant to a lot of things (but not water, unfortunately. Calcium rosinate has a slightly increased sensitivity to water). However making a zinc rosinate by the liquid process makes a rosinate that shares the durability and neutrality of limed rosin (again, which is calcium rosinate) without the water sensitivity. 

But the major advantage of the liquid process over the fusion process you're using when you lime rosin is that you can add something more to the mix than just the metal ion: dye molecules. By dispersing a dye into the potassium rosinate solution before precipitating it with your metal salt, you can lock a colorant into the metal rosinate complex. You cannot dump madder into molten rosin, add lime, and get a red rosinate. But you can add a madder dyebath to the liquid rosinate solution, add your metal salt, and get a red rosinate which you can then cook into oil to get a red varnish. An exceedingly transparent one, at that, which you can then use just like your limed rosin and add pigments etc to achieve precisely the color and transparency you want. 

I'm sorry for the essay, but I hope I have given sufficient detail to make the incredible similarities evident while also pointing out the important differences. At the end of the day, it's all rosinate unless you don't lime, in which case you may experience other difficulties relating to acidity in varnish.

 

 

 

Thanks for the explanation! That certainly fill in a few knowledge gaps .. I’ve done the limed version several times . Also the raw rosin , with a long cook as per R. Hargrave. Thanks again for taking the time to educate. 

[JacksonMaberry]

42 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Thanks for the explanation! That certainly fill in a few knowledge gaps .. I’ve done the limed version several times . Also the raw rosin , with a long cook as per R. Hargrave. Thanks again for taking the time to educate. 

I'm glad it was useful! I was worried I had done a bad job and wasted too many words. I am not the most efficient or natural explainer of things unfortunately. 

[joerobson]

2 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

This is the way to do a controlled experiment. 

Indeed

[ernym]

Joe, is the rosin in your varnishes neutralized? 

[joerobson]

42 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

Joe, is the rosin in your varnishes neutralized? 

Yes.  Using calcium hydroxide to a controlled degree.

[Salve Håkedal]

4 hours ago, joerobson said:

To end this I decades ago acquired more resin (colophony) than I will use in my lifetime.

I remember Michelman advised to use fresh colophony, because it will oxidize with time. I know you don't make the Michelman varnish. But wouldn't your colophony change over such a long time?

[joerobson]

5 minutes ago, Salve Håkedal said:

I remember Michelman advised to use fresh colophony, because it will oxidize with time. I know you don't make the Michelman varnish. But wouldn't your colophony change over such a long time?

Long story.  This is a "bottom resin".  Hercules (who now make toilet bowl rings) had huge vats for processing colophony and turpentine.   Every few years the vats would be "cleaned"...the stuff scraped off the bottom was bottom resin.  It was then sealed 500 lb. galvanized drums.  As I have opened drums I store in sealed tubs.  Perhaps it might pick up a bit of moisture so I am careful to remove this before I process the resin.  The raw colophony is garnet colored.  So far so good....

on we go,

Joe

[ernym]

@Joe, as a veteran varnish maker, without stepping on others toes, what can you say about cooked rosinate varnishes? How do you see them holding up compared to yours? Need some honest insight. It has been mentioned that liming rosin in essence equals a rosinate varnish. Can you explain some  differences between your varnish and these other rosinate varnishes? 

I'm trying to decide what would be the best varnish to use on the last few fiddles I make. To me you are the best one to ask, having decades of experience.  And I'm sure you have made these rosinates yourself. 

[ernym]

One thing I don't like about this particular varnish is the chippyness. I prefer a fatter more durable varnish. I'd like to know if I could fatten up this rosinate varnish by mixing in some fatter varnish or oil. I like how fast the color builds up but it's just too lean. I can actually scratch it off with a fingernail. Could it be this batch was made too lean or is all rosinate varnish on the lean side?

 

[Jim Bress]

This is a cut off from the willow cello back that’s part of my current build. Over a year ago I shaped the piece of scrap wood into a door wedge because it was already almost in that shape. I had just finished making a batch of varnish from Roger’s recipe plus bits of information I learned at a few of Joe Thrift’s workshops. I thought a doorstop would be a good stress test for the varnish. A year + of kicking into a door bottom (you can just make out some scrape marks) and the varnish is nearly undamaged. There are places where the wood dented but the varnish didn’t crack, and it won’t take a scratch from a fingernail. I didn’t lime the rosin. Maybe it’s a fluke batch that happens to work. I guess I’ll find out in time. Point is, I don’t think you’ll get all your answers from the ingredients, as the main ingredient is the cook. 
 

[JacksonMaberry]

53 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

One thing I don't like about this particular varnish is the chippyness. I prefer a fatter more durable varnish. I'd like to know if I could fatten up this rosinate varnish by mixing in some fatter varnish or oil. I like how fast the color builds up but it's just too lean. I can actually scratch it off with a fingernail. Could it be this batch was made too lean or is all rosinate varnish on the lean side?

 

No, not all rosinate varnish is lean. The fatness or leanness is in the ratio of resin to oil, as in all varnishes. My varnishes are not as fragile as Nunzios. For some people that level of friability is desirable, for others it is not. When I came up with this stuff, it was to make a varnish that I personally wanted to use, and I have been successful in that. I can't guarantee it's to everyone's taste, but no maker of things can. Fortunately for me, some people do like it and so I keep it flowing. 

+1 to Jim's point that the cook itself is the main "ingredient". Like a cake - give a dozen people one recipe and you'll get a dozen different cakes. 

[JacksonMaberry]

14 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

This is a cut off from the willow cello back that’s part of my current build. Over a year ago I shaped the piece of scrap wood into a door wedge because it was already almost in that shape. I had just finished making a batch of varnish from Roger’s recipe plus bits of information I learned at a few of Joe Thrift’s workshops. I thought a doorstop would be a good stress test for the varnish. A year + of kicking into a door bottom (you can just make out some scrape marks) and the varnish is nearly undamaged. There are places where the wood dented but the varnish didn’t crack, and it won’t take a scratch from a fingernail. I didn’t lime the rosin. Maybe it’s a fluke batch that happens to work. I guess I’ll find out in time. Point is, I don’t think you’ll get all your answers from the ingredients, as the main ingredient is the cook. 
 

That looks great and the durability is impressive. Substantially more durable than anything I've seen on an old Italian instrument, some of which wants to practically jump off. But maybe it's only become like that with a few centuries of aging. Anything with a substantial amount of drying oil in it is going to change constantly over time.

[JacksonMaberry]

Well, unless you make it to ASTM standards, in which case you might as well buy it from DuPont. 

[ernym]

My question remains...can I somehow change the leanness of this rosinate varnish?

I know how to cook a durable varnish but have never varnished a fiddle with rosinate which is why I'm experimenting with it and asking questions. I do like the color but this older batch of varnish is just too fragile for me. If there is a way to make it fatter then I would like to continue to experiment with it. Otherwise I just bought another batch from Nunzio and will see if that has the same leanness. If it does and I'm not able to change the resin/oil ratio then I'm done with it. Maybe sell it to someone who prefers a lean varnish. I know those who antique like a chippy varnish. I don't antique my fiddles.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, charliemaine said:

My question remains...can I somehow change the leanness of this rosinate varnish?

I know how to cook a durable varnish but have never varnished a fiddle with rosinate which is why I'm experimenting with it and asking questions. I do like the color but this older batch of varnish is just too fragile for me. If there is a way to make it fatter then I would like to continue to experiment with it. Otherwise I just bought another batch from Nunzio and will see if that has the same leanness. If it does and I'm not able to change the resin/oil ratio then I'm done with it. Maybe sell it to someone who prefers a lean varnish. I know those who antique like a chippy varnish. I don't antique my fiddles.

You can mix it with a fatter varnish to get more durability. It will of course dilute the coloring power. Nunzio has said, if I recall correctly, he uses a 1:1 oil to resin ratio. I use a 3:2 oil to resin ratio. Makes a pretty substantial difference. Don't expect his current products to behave differently unless he's changed his ratio. The oil to resin ratio, as well as what happens in the cook, are by far the most critical elements in determining a varnish's wear characteristics. Good luck.