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Violin identification, Label "Amati Mangenot, Bordeaux 1944"


Jehi
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Opinions and expertise to this violin will be very appreciated. The seller (a violin dealer) says he bought the violin last year in Paris from a violinist who is from Bordeaux.
The violin is in very good condition, the bass bar/bridge was renewed. I found 6 stamps on the violin, outside 4, inside 2 (could be more stamps inside). 
Label says:
AMATI MANGENOT, LUTHIER
Copie Stainer (handwritten)
à BORDEAUX    l'An 19...... 44 (handwritten on the dotted line)

25 pictures on Google drive:
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1OWGQoAM9_-Ce-2bJSLTuEglTak7XsXJ3

Thanks for the help and best regards,
Jehi

AmatiMangenot01.jpg

AmatiMangenot02.jpg

AmatiMangenot09.jpg

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37 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

You may get some insights by reading about the familly, and checking his fathers catalogue

Mangenot, catalogue, 1897, Mirecourt (luthiers-mirecourt.com)

Thank you for the information! I already had a look at that homepage but I couldn't find any information about his son, Amati Mangenot. I got some additional information from two books but without knowing that maker, I can't tell if this violin is authentic. I was hoping somebody knows that particular instrument or saw a similar one (or at least one with stamps).

 

Mangenot_book1.jpg

Mangenot_book2.jpg

Mangenot_book2a.jpg

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51 minutes ago, Jehi said:

Thank you for the information! I already had a look at that homepage but I couldn't find any information about his son, Amati Mangenot. I got some additional information from two books but without knowing that maker, I can't tell if this violin is authentic. I was hoping somebody knows that particular instrument or saw a similar one (or at least one with stamps).

 

Mangenot_book1.jpg

Mangenot_book2.jpg

Mangenot_book2a.jpg

I am certainly not in any way expert on French violins, largely through lack of interest, since they tend to all look much the same to me. Terriers site does tell us that (Paul) Amati M was born in 1901 as third son of Paul M who trained him, and that he settled in Bordeuax. Paul (father) had an exceptionally large firm in Mirecout as Derazey successor, and sold his firm to Labert in 1928. I would be sceptical of anyone who wished to tell me that he (P. Amati M:) sat in an ivory tower in Bordeuax scratching around making violins himself, rather than having them sent from his dad's firm, although I’m sure you will find people who will tell you such tales if you search long enough

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I've seen an Amati Mangenot that had a distinctly dark red-brown varnish, that I found rather attractive. A good violin both acoustically and what workmanship is concerned. I made photos back then, that I unfortunately can't find now (very helpful, I know). It had a brand "Amati Mangenot" on the upper plate, under the fingerboard right over the top block that would be hard to fake unless the top or fingerboard was off. Wether or not this is one, I cannot say, as it has been too long since. However, this violin has a different varnish, and on the whole I find it a bit less attractive than I remember the other violin to have been, visually speaking. I don't think it had a label at all, and I only identified the maker by reading the stamp under the fingerboard.

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I don't think you could really call this an Amati Mangenot - it looks much more like a Laberte "Stainer model".

The model is a specific and rather eccentric late Mirecourt model with those huge rolled edges, long corners and a very characteristic button shape.

It's not inconceivable that Amati Mangenot sold a few violins like this which he labelled and branded to death, but personally i've never seen his brand under the button. 

More likely something that was bought from a gypsy in the Rue de Rome, and that the label and brands are spurious.

The violin looks decent enough, so I suppose it depends on the price.

 

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18 hours ago, martin swan said:

I don't think you could really call this an Amati Mangenot - it looks much more like a Laberte "Stainer model".

The model is a specific and rather eccentric late Mirecourt model with those huge rolled edges, long corners and a very characteristic button shape.

It's not inconceivable that Amati Mangenot sold a few violins like this which he labelled and branded to death, but personally i've never seen his brand under the button. 

More likely something that was bought from a gypsy in the Rue de Rome, and that the label and brands are spurious.

The violin looks decent enough, so I suppose it depends on the price.

 

 

21 hours ago, baroquecello said:

I've seen an Amati Mangenot that had a distinctly dark red-brown varnish, that I found rather attractive. A good violin both acoustically and what workmanship is concerned. I made photos back then, that I unfortunately can't find now (very helpful, I know). It had a brand "Amati Mangenot" on the upper plate, under the fingerboard right over the top block that would be hard to fake unless the top or fingerboard was off. Wether or not this is one, I cannot say, as it has been too long since. However, this violin has a different varnish, and on the whole I find it a bit less attractive than I remember the other violin to have been, visually speaking. I don't think it had a label at all, and I only identified the maker by reading the stamp under the fingerboard.

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! 

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Amati Mangenots can be high quality "hand-made" artist grade violins. They can also be bought-in Mirecourt violins, but this one seems a much lower "tradier" grade than what I'd expect to see, and I agree with Martin that it's a Laberte that's been dolled up with fake label and brands.

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6 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

Amati Mangenots can be high quality "hand-made" artist grade violins. They can also be bought-in Mirecourt violins, but this one seems a much lower "tradier" grade than what I'd expect to see, and I agree with Martin that it's a Laberte that's been dolled up with fake label and brands.

Thanks for the insights!

10 minutes ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

Hey, while OP's violin appears to be factory, the case is a decent Gordge...

One of the last real Gordge cases, was lucky to get one!

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

Amati Mangenots can be high quality "hand-made" artist grade violins. They can also be bought-in Mirecourt violins, but this one seems a much lower "tradier" grade than what I'd expect to see, and I agree with Martin that it's a Laberte that's been dolled up with fake label and brands.

If it is a fake then the one who fabricated it did put a lot of effort into it, there is a stamp below the fingerboard and also (at least) two stamps inside the violin, which I think can't be put there without opening the violin...what do you think?

Edited by Jehi
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2 hours ago, Jehi said:

If it is a fake then the one who fabricated it did put a lot of effort into it, there is a stamp below the fingerboard and also (at least) two stamps inside the violin, which I think can't be put there without opening the violin...what do you think?

It’s for precisely these reasons that people are tricked.

It’s not as big a job to remove the top as you might think, and those doing it for this reason are never as skilled or careful as a qualified restorer.

What does the under edge of the belly look like? Bits of wood missing and dirty retouching?

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2 hours ago, Jehi said:

If it is a fake then the one who fabricated it did put a lot of effort into it, there is a stamp below the fingerboard and also (at least) two stamps inside the violin, which I think can't be put there without opening the violin...what do you think?

Bordeaux is the place for this sort of work :lol:

Sometimes I wonder at the stupidity of it, often a perfectly good violin is turned into something only marginally better and then sold on the cheap.

I can't guarantee that this is the story of your violin, but there is a major production line with very sophisticated branding, copy labels etc. These guys are in fact tremendously skilful and can take a top off and put it back on without any obvious indication that they have been there ...

I would also allow the possibility that Amati Mangenot simply bought a Stainer model in the white from Laberte and did it up and sold it. This was very common practice in the French trade in the early-mid 20th century. 

There are those who dispute whether many French makers of this period ever made a violin themselves ...

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