Violin varnish products in Australia?

[Cameron Smith]

Hi all,
I'm an amateur maker in Australia approaching the varnishing stage for my first violin, but am having troubles sourcing any sort of violin varnish in a land far from Europe or Joe Robson...
Do any Australian luthiers here know of a good source for (preferably oil) varnish that doesn't involve me paying absurd overseas shipping costs, and whether that's even possible with our Dangerous Goods import laws etc?  I've had a look at Hammerl and OldWood varnishes, but 40 Euros of shipping even for a very small bottle of varnish seems a bit steep for my tight uni student budget...

I'm honestly thinking making my own varnish from colophany or gum copal might be the way to go if I want it cheap(ish)!
 

[joerobson]

I have been shipping to Australia for many years.....check USPS for shipping rate on medium priority box.

[JacksonMaberry]

If for whatever reason you can't make shipping work, there are some recipes for making your own that aren't too onerous. Good luck!

[TimRobinson]

12 hours ago, Cameron Smith said:

Hi all,
I'm an amateur maker in Australia approaching the varnishing stage for my first violin, but am having troubles sourcing any sort of violin varnish in a land far from Europe or Joe Robson...
Do any Australian luthiers here know of a good source for (preferably oil) varnish that doesn't involve me paying absurd overseas shipping costs, and whether that's even possible with our Dangerous Goods import laws etc?  I've had a look at Hammerl and OldWood varnishes, but 40 Euros of shipping even for a very small bottle of varnish seems a bit steep for my tight uni student budget...

I'm honestly thinking making my own varnish from colophany or gum copal might be the way to go if I want it cheap(ish)!
 

Also in Oz.  Shipping costs here from the US and the EU can be insane, sadly.  If you want to make your own, the Darnton Mastic Varnish is dead easy - but seems to get better with age (don't we all :-) .  I've always wanted to try Adele Beardsmore's varnish see: https://cdn.cremonatools.com/media/wysiwyg/PDF/HOW_TO_MAKE_VARNISH_Adele_Beardsmore_2008.pdf

Tim

Edited March 31, 2022 by TimRobinson
typo

[JacksonMaberry]

10 minutes ago, TimRobinson said:

Also in Oz.  Shipping costs here from the US and the EU can be insane, sadly.  If you want to make your won, the Darnton Mastic Varnish is dead easy - but seems to get better with age (don't we all :-) .  I've always wanted to try Adele Beardsmore's varnish see: https://cdn.cremonatools.com/media/wysiwyg/PDF/HOW_TO_MAKE_VARNISH_Adele_Beardsmore_2008.pdf

Tim

Cool, thanks for sharing the article! I use aloe sometimes too, but do it a bit differently. I'll have to try it her way sometime.

[Cameron Smith]

3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

If for whatever reason you can't make shipping work, there are some recipes for making your own that aren't too onerous. Good luck!

Awesome!  I'm looking at probably trying Edgar Russ's varnish recipe he has described on Youtube or perhaps Michael Darnton's recipe.
I've only been able to source shellac, colophony and gum copal in Australia however, so I don't know if Edgar's or Michael's recipe would quite work for me as they both recommend amber and mastic, respectively, and I can't get my hands on either.

Anybody have any good (but simple enough for a beginner :D) recipes involving only those resins I can lay my hands on?

 

[JacksonMaberry]

3 hours ago, Cameron Smith said:

Awesome!  I'm looking at probably trying Edgar Russ's varnish recipe he has described on Youtube or perhaps Michael Darnton's recipe.
I've only been able to source shellac, colophony and gum copal in Australia however, so I don't know if Edgar's or Michael's recipe would quite work for me as they both recommend amber and mastic, respectively, and I can't get my hands on either.

Anybody have any good (but simple enough for a beginner :D) recipes involving only those resins I can lay my hands on?

 

I can't recommend the cold mastic varnish, or any cold varnish really. Russ makes an amber varnish as you've noted, and fossil resin varnishes are kind of challenging and not what I'd recommend as an intro to the art. Further, fossil resins are very hard and were used historically for coaches and other all-weather purposes, not violins.

The process described in Roger Hargrave's "bass book" (actually a thread on this forum) uses colophony and is not too difficult. Check it out and see what you think. 

One of the things that turns people off to the Hargrave recipe is the loooooong resin cook time to induce color. I get it, it's a pain and it requires patience (not my strong suit). You can make a perfectly good varnish that can be colored with later additives without cooking that long, especially with colophony. 

Select your materials carefully. I don't recommend wood rosin/FF grade/ "dark" colophony - these are produced as pulp mill residues and unfortunately come with a green/gray undertones that carries into the finished varnish. I recommend WW grade, clear, pale, and in large pieces, that is residue from the distillation of spirits of turpentine.

You want cold pressed linseed oil, purified in some way to remove the mucilage - many ways to accomplish this, and you may or may not have to do it yourself. Much has been written here and shared about how to go about it. 

Colorless colophony varnish: 

250g colophony

250g linseed oil

4g Calcium Oxide

1g Manganese Oxide

100g pure gum spirits of turpentine, d-limonene, or naptha.

Equipment:

Fire extinguisher

Stainless steel saucepan

Electric hotplate

Stainless stirring rod or long handled spoon

Glass canning jar

Instant-read cooking thermometer capable of up to 300C

Procedure:

Outdoors on a clear, calm day, away from flammable structures or other matter, wearing only natural fibers, place the resin in a clean stainless steel pan on the hotplate. Heat gradually to 200C, or until the resin mass has completely melted into a uniform liquid. Gradually add the calcium and manganese oxides, stirring gently throughout and for a few minutes beyond to ensure thorough dissipation. Turn off the heat and allow the mass to cool solid. Chip it all out of the pan when cool into a separate container. Put the oil in the pan, add your treated resin, heat gradually to 200C, visually confirm the complete dissolution of the resin into the oil. Maintain temperature at 200C for two to four hours. Cool below the flash point of your chosen solvent, incorporate the solvent. Cool to 80-100C and pour into canning jar. Allow to stand one month so that residual mineral particulate can settle to the bottom. Decant off any sediment into a well fitting jar with minimal air that seals well. 

Color with Joha color extracts or similar to achieve desired hue. 

It's a simple procedure, it works, it's inexpensive. It is not foolproof, it is not the varnish of the Cremonese, and it is not the greatest varnish ever. It is just a perfectly serviceable instrument varnish. Remember that varnish has always been an industry unto itself, not an amateur endeavor, and so it cannot be expected to be easy as pie. But it is doable with diligence, practice, and a keen mind for safety and accuracy.

Godspeed.

Edited since I realized errors after writing this stream of consciousness after midnight. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by JacksonMaberry

[David Stiles]

3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Colorless colophony varnish: 

250g colophony

250g linseed oil

4g Calcium Oxide

1g Manganese Oxide

100g pure gum spirits of turpentine, d-limonene, or naptha.

I have used a similar recipe that does not have the manganese oxide.  What does the manganese oxide do?

[Michael Szyper]

I strongly advise against cooking varnish because of budget reasons. Until you get a   n i c e  varnish you will see hundreds or thousands of dollars leaving your pocket.

go for Jackson’s or Joes great products. 

[JacksonMaberry]

4 hours ago, David Stiles said:

I have used a similar recipe that does not have the manganese oxide.  What does the manganese oxide do?

You could think of it as optional, but it helps overcome the negative effects of the calcium oxide - while the calcium oxide is useful for making the rosin less acidic (neutral is ideal but the stoichiometry is beyond most people's interest and so they do it qualitatively/casually), it creates calcium rosinate which is partially water soluble. The manganese addition creates a blend of calcium and manganese rosinates, and the latter is insoluble in water and helps the varnish hold up over time. 

[JacksonMaberry]

2 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

I strongly advise against cooking varnish because of budget reasons. Until you get a   n i c e  varnish you will see hundreds or thousands of dollars leaving your pocket.

go for Jackson’s or Joes great products. 

You're very kind, thanks Michael. Joe and I work hard to make the best tools we can. 

I do have a lot of empathy for OP's position and understand that the expense of ordering foreign varnish seems daunting. I also believe that making varnish is a lot of fun and could see why anyone would want to enjoy the process.

But Michael is right - it can be a dizzyingly expensive undertaking with a very steep learning curve. Joe once told me he's probably thrown away more varnish than was ever used on the 1000+ instruments of Stradivari. I haven't been doing this as long as he has, but I, too, have seen thousands of dollars slip between my fingers in my continuing research and development efforts. 

[Mike_Danielson]

Cameron, make your own stuff--it is simple.  Follow Roger Hargrave's bass book recipe but take it up to 300 C; so the process is over in 1-2 hours.  Time is determined by the color density you wish.  You will get a red-brown varnish in any case.  This recipe is a variation of the recipe in Mrs. Merrifield's book which goes back a few hundred years.  Long term experience is what you have to depend upon for long term stability of the varnish.

Add turpentine to thin and a few drops of Japan Drier before application.   

If you look at issues of The Strad magazine of a hundered years ago, you will find venders for Strad Varnish.  These suppliers are long gone--wonder how that warranty held up.

Watch out for cold varnishes--they resemble megilp which is famous for its ultimate failure.  If interested in varnishes, look at the data on what oil painters have used over the centuries--They are the ones with long term experience on how this stuff holds up.  By the way, ASTM has methods of determining the stability of coatings, varnishes, pigments, etc.--none of the modern violin varnish has been subjected to this testing for stability; so, it is all a guess.

Mike D

[Michael Szyper]

56 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

they resemble megilp which is famous for its ultimate failure.

I would be very interested on how it fails — alligatoring, stickiness, chipping…? There are beautiful and ugly ways of varnish failure.

[JacksonMaberry]

5 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

I would be very interested on how it fails — alligatoring, stickiness, chipping…? There are beautiful and ugly ways of varnish failure.

https://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Megilp

I agree that varnish "failure" can be a feature and not a big, but megilp is just bad. 

It clear that the varnishes of the Cremonese have failed from a technical standpoint. Worth remembering we're craftsmen, not engineers, and our needs and aims are different. 

 

[Michael Szyper]

So it says megilp cracked and blistered… I am curious how one attributes this to the cold mix. It is rather probable that the film can not dry evenly or the dried varnish is too brittle. 

[Cameron Smith]

Thanks everyone for your input!  I have eventually somehow found a varnish source in an adjacent state that was previously ordered from Germany, but with dangerous goods shipping costs it will still cost ~400 USD.  I therefore think that I will just try making my own varnish as I can get some good colophany/copal as well as purified linseed oil for ~75 USD. 

Will my first ever attempt be successful and worth it financially?  Possibly not, but the violin I'm making is my first, always an experiment, and has some small imperfections in purfling/scroll as I learn a new craft.  I'm happy to have a go experimenting at least once more with varnish making and if it is a disaster; well, I know where I can invest some coin into

[JacksonMaberry]

5 hours ago, Cameron Smith said:

Thanks everyone for your input!  I have eventually somehow found a varnish source in an adjacent state that was previously ordered from Germany, but with dangerous goods shipping costs it will still cost ~400 USD.  I therefore think that I will just try making my own varnish as I can get some good colophany/copal as well as purified linseed oil for ~75 USD. 

Will my first ever attempt be successful and worth it financially?  Possibly not, but the violin I'm making is my first, always an experiment, and has some small imperfections in purfling/scroll as I learn a new craft.  I'm happy to have a go experimenting at least once more with varnish making and if it is a disaster; well, I know where I can invest some coin into

You'll be fine. Good luck!

[HoGo]

For your first you can use something like Tru-oil. Although not very traditional It has worked for some well known makers and results look just like any other common "violin varnish". I've used it on several instruments (mandolins) and it works much like the commercial oil varnishes like Hidersine or Hammerl. It's more about the application than the material.

Have a look here: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/350557-mdarnton/

 

[JacksonMaberry]

Thanks for mentioning that HoGo! Good thinking, this could be a really good option for our friend here to just get something and get started. 

[Cameron Smith]

 

On 4/1/2022 at 8:20 PM, HoGo said:

For your first you can use something like Tru-oil. Although not very traditional It has worked for some well known makers and results look just like any other common "violin varnish". I've used it on several instruments (mandolins) and it works much like the commercial oil varnishes like Hidersine or Hammerl. It's more about the application than the material.

Have a look here: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/350557-mdarnton/

 

Wow!  Now tru-oil is a product I can get in Australia... In my city in fact!  I may yet do some experiments with varnish making for my own satisfaction, but if Tru-oil is good enough for Michael Darnton (at least for one instrument that by all accounts looks excellent), it's good enough for me!
Thanks for the input, I'll get a bottle I think...

[Michael Darnton]

I was very impressed by the stuff. It's extremely fool-proof.

My own varnish is fussy and some people have had problems with it. I think that some of that revolves around the precise mix and procedures, and obtaining fresh materials. I disagree with Jackson--it is not inherently bad because it's not cooked. As far as I know, after a lot of research, mastic is the ONLY varnish resin that forms a legitimate oil-linked varnish without cooking. The reason I started using this mix was because we aren't painters, the same rules don't apply, and the "failures" of megilp sound a lot like the failures of Cremonese varnish so I thought it was worth a try. I have yet to see these failures develop, though, fortunately or unfortunately, so I don't have much to say on that--correctly compounded the varnish has been remarkably stable. I have a few failures related to other issues, however, particularly from the use of too much tar as a colorant. Testing new things, which I regularly do, has its down sides.

Charles Beare once offered the idea that the state we see of largely missing varnish on Cremonese instruments was possibly achieved within a few decades of their manufacture. While this doesn't sound like a good artist painters' varnish, the possibility does force us to decide if we wish to be varnishing in the traditional Cremonese way and live with the problems, or are we varnishing coaches? I will opt for the first choice. If one is looking for a coach varnish, there are lots of possibilities out there.

[David Stiles]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:05 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

1g Manganese Oxide

I can source Manganese Dioxide, the black powder, confusingly also known as Manganese IV Oxide.  Is this the right stuff?

[JacksonMaberry]

3 hours ago, David Stiles said:

I can source Manganese Dioxide, the black powder, confusingly also known as Manganese IV Oxide.  Is this the right stuff?

Yes, kind of. What that post describes is the manufacture of a calcium-manganese rosinate by fusion, to be used as a primary varnish resin. 

For making manganese rosinate for use in tiny quantities as a drier, I'd recommend using the liquid process instead. For that you'll want a water soluble salt of manganese. I recommend manganese sulfate monohydrate, it is generally the cheapest and is readily available at least here in the US. If you can find some, I can give you details on making the drier.

[David Stiles]

5 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Yes, kind of. What that post describes is the manufacture of a calcium-manganese rosinate by fusion, to be used as a primary varnish resin. 

Thanks Jackson, I wanted to incorporate manganese oxide into next batch of varnish, per your recipe.  I'll give making drier a miss for now.  

[JacksonMaberry]

11 minutes ago, David Stiles said:

Thanks Jackson, I wanted to incorporate manganese oxide into next batch of varnish, per your recipe.  I'll give making drier a miss for now.  

Ah, ok sorry, I had my wires crossed. If you're going to use the recipe (or at least the part of adding manganese) the manganese (iv) oxide is what I'd use. Stir everything well with a nonreactive, nonflammable stirrer when adding metal oxides to resin - do so carefully. I use a lab hotplate with magnetic stirring, as it keeps my hands away and does a uniform job of it. Safety gear is a must for varnish making as you know, but I can't help saying it. Wear a mask, gloves, and goggles when measuring out dry reagents such as metal oxides.