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Hopf or Hoyer or ?


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3 hours ago, Blank face said:

IMO there isn't any mystery about this violin, if one gets to the point to accept that it's very often not possible to tell more than a rough origin and age of an instrument or a bow - .to say more than this means usually randomly name dropping, and some certificate writers of past and present seem to make a good living from such an illusion.

From the examples I gave it's clear that there wasn't much a difference between models used by Hopf, Hoyer or other families of the Vogtland/West Bohemia region. As was told often before, they all were close related, apprenticed each other, worked in the same shops and so on, and there was a lot of division of labour very early. Also many labels or even brands just inform about who carried to and sold the instrument at venues like Nürnberg or other bigger cities.

It's also not easy resp. not possible to give a definite date. The OP violin I would rather assume to be made in the first half of the 19th century, not before 1800.

 

Blank,

Not to beat this subject into the ground but what indicates a later date?

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3 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Blank,

Not to beat this subject into the ground but what indicates a later date?

Experience with dated examples and comparison. Given it is a Carl Christian Hopf, born in 1791, is it probable that he made the violin before celebrating his 9th birthday?  

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26 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Experience with dated examples and comparison. Given it is a Carl Christian Hopf, born in 1791, is it probable that he made the violin before celebrating his 9th birthday?  

Well...kids did start working at a younger age back then. ^_^

Weren't 6-year olds sent to the coal mines? :(

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29 minutes ago, Rue said:

Well...kids did start working at a younger age back then. ^_^

Weren't 6-year olds sent to the coal mines? :(

As young as 5 apparently and other professions would start at 4.

At 12 some children might find themselves aboard naval vessels as officers in training.

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28 minutes ago, Rue said:

Yes.  So while it's unlikely that a 9-year old would be an accomplished luthier...I think a 9-year old might be able to make a credible violin.

Well it's not outside the realm of possibility.......... If you came from a family of luthiers then this could of happened I suppose.

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18 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Blank,

Thanks for your comments. I’ll be more careful of off the cuff opinions from now on.

It’s not that I didn’t started once with similar assumptions, but one becomes more realistic/careful with experience. One thing at the Seidel book is that they made dendros to most instruments and the results were that many of those thought to be made in the 18th century by older literature (David Hopf for example) couldn’t be made before 1820 or later. Just what reason would tell. There are very few Vogtlandish instruments made in by and preserved from the 18th, before the start of the enlarged trade organization makers were spending probably a big part of their lifetime as farmers for simple subsidence.

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