Which ground to use

[Tostra]

Hi
I'm a new amateur maker, just finished my seventh instrument: https://www.instagram.com/p/CbIzOICNjjt/
I have been using a few different grounds now: Hammerl's spirit varnish primer (isn't that just spirit varnish btw?), clear sugar ground, and for the last few a casein/calcium ground further sealed with a single coat of spirit varnish. I feel like they have all worked very well, but I quite like the casein. The one thing I don't like is that it seems to be less refractive than the other two, which soak into the wood a bit. I was recommended a linseed oil and aloe ground for the maple that penetrates the wood somewhat and hardens, but I still don't know how I feel about that. My mind has always been set on preventing any varnish from entering the wood, so putting oil into it feels like a bad idea. I suppose varnish or oil in the wood makes it more lively and refractive, but does anyone know how it affects the tone?
And also, does it make any difference how deep the ground penetrates for the refractiveness? I would assume soaking in just a little bit is good, but any further than that is bad, as you only see the surface anyway?

I've also considered simply varnishing straight on the wood. I'm using old wood oil varnish right now, and I doubt it'll soak in as far as a linseed oil ground. So maybe I would get the same effect but with less dampening?
I haven't yet made my test pieces yet, but these are the options I'm considering:

1) Casein ground on the spruce, no ground on the maple, so straight oil varnish
2) Casein ground on the spruce, oil/aloe ground on the maple
3) Using spirit varnish to seal the wood, including the spruce
4) Using clear sugar ground
5) Spirit varnish, and then casein ground. Not sure if this would work or not
6) Sticking with casein all over, as it has actually worked, sounded and looked pretty good so far

I like to antique, so I start by oxidizing the wood with sodoum nitrite for a week or so. The calcium in the casein ground yellows the wood, and I quite like that. So I am considering applying calcium on its own prior to the ground just for the colour. I suppose that would fill the grain a bit on its own?
And since I'm going to be antiquing, I would like the ground to look "old" when revealed. I add a bit of nut stain in the casein ground, making it look a little dirty, but i suppose the dirt would really only be in the revealed wood, not the ground itself. But any tips to darken the wood further before pplying varnish are appreciated.

Out of these options, what would you do and why? Is there a better alternative I should try out?

Thanks in advance :-)

[Davide Sora]

Wow, I think these are too many questions all in a row, I don't know if you will find anyone willing to give you all the answers...

To answer your point 5, applying a water protein sealer (casein or others) after having applied any resinous or oily sealer is not a good idea, unless you want to make the varnish peel off and chip very easily.

However, I think it's a technique used by people who want to make faux antique varnishes, so maybe you can consider it, but it is something artificial that I would not do on a real violin.

[JacksonMaberry]

Oil and oil varnishes are good grounds with substantial historical precedent. The trick is application - applying just enough and not too much. I understand your concern, and you're right in that you don't want to soak the wood with oil because that will screw things up performance wise. But a well formulated oil or oil/resin ground can look and sound fantastic if you're careful. 

[Tostra]

Haha, thanks Davide, I think you're right. But maybe someone knows the answer to some of it and I can work out the rest on my own with sample pieces. That's the idea at least... :-P
And thanks for the heads up on that! I do want it to chip away, but I think the old wood varnish on casein was perfect, I don't want it any more chippy than that. I suppose an oil ground might be less chippy, but I don't know yet...

And Jackson, that is of course true. What would you suggest as the application method? Say I wanted to use my varnish as the ground, I suppose adding it in little spots and spreading them around would make those spots soak up a little more and make them visible? 
I would like to try it, but I really want to make sure I'm doing it right so I don't screw up a nice violin...

[JacksonMaberry]

42 minutes ago, Tostra said:

Haha, thanks Davide, I think you're right. But maybe someone knows the answer to some of it and I can work out the rest on my own with sample pieces. That's the idea at least... :-P
And thanks for the heads up on that! I do want it to chip away, but I think the old wood varnish on casein was perfect, I don't want it any more chippy than that. I suppose an oil ground might be less chippy, but I don't know yet...

And Jackson, that is of course true. What would you suggest as the application method? Say I wanted to use my varnish as the ground, I suppose adding it in little spots and spreading them around would make those spots soak up a little more and make them visible? 
I would like to try it, but I really want to make sure I'm doing it right so I don't screw up a nice violin...

Lots of ways to go about it. Easier to do without overpenetration if the material is very viscous. If it isn't, you can thicken it with selenite/marienglas until it's the consistency of toothpaste. 

Regardless of the ground, the point is for it to function as a size, which is to say it should be in the wood rather than on it. If you build a film with the ground, knock it back. Whatever is in the wood does not apply to the fat over lean rule, for one. Secondly, it's the physical interface between the size and the wood that gives the optical properties. Lastly, any ground that is film building will have some impact on adhesion writ large (whether one you want or one you don't), whereas a properly applied size makes for a varnish-wood surface interface that is predictable. Have fun and good luck!

[Deo Lawson]

I am more novice than you, but I used the vernice blanca recipe for a ground coat and I quite like it. It dries fairly hard and doesn't mix with the varnish, but everything sticks to it nicely.

[jezzupe]

I would do test's of all your potential "schemes" and see which you like best. try doing some antique practice, you may find one group of products works better for you doing that vs others.

I personally like to use the force...that powers 99% of biological life on the planet and then spakle it with bug puke, but not all the time, I think Joe Robson has fantastic products and its hard to go wrong that way

but really practice on scrap, get some idea of whats what before you jump to your work

[Tostra]

Thanks, Jackson. The varnish is quite viscous, which is why I think it might not penetrate much. I will try it out on a piece of wood.
We do agree that it should not be done on the spruce, right? There I still use casein or spirit varnish, not oil varnish?
And application method is still something I'm confused about... Do I take a little bit on my finger and rub it in to the wood, do I brush it on and wipe it off..? But either way, I will not be building up a film with the ground. Good tip :-D

I'll look into vernice bianca. Seems like it's honey and gum arabic, I have both on a shelf :-)

And jezzupe, of course! I'm asking here because I'm mostly concerned about impact on the tone which I can't test that quickly, and sometimes you more experienced people have already learned a few lessons that I can keep in mind while experimenting. For instance, I wasn't aware that film building or using two different grounds over each other would have such an impact on chipping. So of course I will try everything out on both maple and spruce and do some antiquing tests to see how it acts and looks.
Do you mean honey and water as a ground? While I hate to ruin a joke, I have to be sure I understand... :-P
And yes, I've heard great things about Joe Robson's varnishes and his balsam ground, but I'm not sure I can get it in Denmark. I'm considering it though

[jezzupe]

2 hours ago, Tostra said:

Thanks, Jackson. The varnish is quite viscous, which is why I think it might not penetrate much. I will try it out on a piece of wood.
We do agree that it should not be done on the spruce, right? There I still use casein or spirit varnish, not oil varnish?
And application method is still something I'm confused about... Do I take a little bit on my finger and rub it in to the wood, do I brush it on and wipe it off..? But either way, I will not be building up a film with the ground. Good tip :-D

I'll look into vernice bianca. Seems like it's honey and gum arabic, I have both on a shelf :-)

And jezzupe, of course! I'm asking here because I'm mostly concerned about impact on the tone which I can't test that quickly, and sometimes you more experienced people have already learned a few lessons that I can keep in mind while experimenting. For instance, I wasn't aware that film building or using two different grounds over each other would have such an impact on chipping. So of course I will try everything out on both maple and spruce and do some antiquing tests to see how it acts and looks.
Do you mean honey and water as a ground? While I hate to ruin a joke, I have to be sure I understand... :-P
And yes, I've heard great things about Joe Robson's varnishes and his balsam ground, but I'm not sure I can get it in Denmark. I'm considering it though

I prefer in most cases lightly carmelized white table sugar with water allowed to dry and over coated with amber wax free shellac

also if tone were represented by 100% I would say varnish is in general 2-5% of that so I wouldn't get too hung up  on the varnish steering your tone

and that anyone's opinion on such things would be purely opinion, including my own

[MikeC]

3 hours ago, jezzupe said:

 

I personally like to use the force...that powers 99% of biological life on the planet 

You use adenosine triphosphate for a ground?   Wow!  

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, Tostra said:

I'll look into vernice bianca. Seems like it's honey and gum arabic, I have both on a shelf :-)

For instance, I wasn't aware that film building or using two different grounds over each other would have such an impact on chipping.

Do not forget the albumin to make vernice bianca, it is the main ingredient.

Here you can see an example of its use to form a separating layer between ground and varnish, to facilitate chipping for antiquing (bad thing, bad thing ):

https://youtu.be/dzVG4FtXOHo?t=104

 

[Jim Bress]

4 hours ago, jezzupe said:

I would do test's of all your potential "schemes" and see which you like best. try doing some antique practice, you may find one group of products works better for you doing that vs others.

I personally like to use the force...that powers 99% of biological life on the planet and then spakle it with bug puke, but not all the time, I think Joe Robson has fantastic products and its hard to go wrong that way

but really practice on scrap, get some idea of whats what before you jump to your work

Adenosine triphosphate? 

[Tostra]

Thanks!

I'll look into the recipe if I get around to trying it. Right now I have plenty of things to test though.

And yeah, the whole intentionally separating the ground to make the varnish chip thing... I won't do that, don't worry :-P

And yeah, I did misunderstand you Jezzupe. You said "powers", water doesn't... But then I'd have to argue, most organisms can only consume glucose and have to process the fructose half of table sugar before it powers anything ;-)

[MikeC]

58 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

Adenosine triphosphate? 

lol  great minds think alike! 

[Michael_Molnar]

Is the classical Cremonese ground aqueous, namely water-based?

[Don Noon]

20 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I don't know if you will find anyone willing to give you all the answers...

More likely you will find several people willing to give answers... all of them different, leaving you back where you started.

My answer:  thin casein on the spruce, primarily to keep the fibers from tearing out during final scraping.  Then a resin/solvent sealer coat, which might pass for a "sprit varnish" or shellac.

I have no convincing argument for my way being better than anything else; it's just what I have settled on... at the moment.

[Andreas Preuss]

23 hours ago, Tostra said:

. I suppose varnish or oil in the wood makes it more lively and refractive, but does anyone know how it affects the tone?

Depends really on whom you ask. Roger Hargrave claims that his plaster of Paris method makes a sound with superior projection because it prevents in his interpretation the varnish to penetrate the wood.

If you use the balsam ground by Joe Robson it is pretty much the opposite. His liquids for ground layers are designed to penetrate the wood really deeply. And this definitely enhances the depth of the ground on maple.

my personal view is that maple needs a different treatment than spruce because the top is much more sensitive when it comes to sound. On maple you can therefore use a deeply penetrating substance, on spruce I would avoid it, especially if it is something soft like propolis. 
 

Last not least, different wood treatments have IMO a bigger effect on the sound than formulas for the ground. But I am sure there are other viewpoints on this by other MN  members.

[jezzupe]

4 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

Adenosine triphosphate? 

Well as atp is primarily composed of a nitrogeneous compound, ribose SUGAR, and 3 bonded phosphates ...I think it qualifies as a yes

[Michael_Molnar]

38 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

my personal view is that maple needs a different treatment than spruce because the top is much more sensitive when it comes to sound. On maple you can therefore use a deeply penetrating substance, on spruce I would avoid it, especially if it is something soft like propolis. 

I too wonder if this is the case, but I have not seen any researcher finding different grounds for spruce and maple. Maybe they never looked for it. Different grounds could create different appearances.

 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

9 hours ago, Tostra said:

We do agree that it should not be done on the spruce, right? There I still use casein or spirit varnish, not oil varnish?
And application method is still something I'm confused about... Do I take a little bit on my finger and rub it in to the wood, do I brush it on and wipe it off..?

I'd use the same thing all over, myself. If the spruce is unusually porous, you could mix in some of the marienglas. Otherwise rub on, spread around, buff off, cure. 

[jezzupe]

5 hours ago, Tostra said:

Thanks!

I'll look into the recipe if I get around to trying it. Right now I have plenty of things to test though.

And yeah, the whole intentionally separating the ground to make the varnish chip thing... I won't do that, don't worry :-P

And yeah, I did misunderstand you Jezzupe. You said "powers", water doesn't... But then I'd have to argue, most organisms can only consume glucose and have to process the fructose half of table sugar before it powers anything ;-)

Well we're half way there , but you can use fruit sugars alone without the glucose bond, but remember any wet sugars must be turned to glass "crystal" prior to re solvent with water , its why I like white sugar. its already glassed or crystal and once the water evaporates it goes back to that state.

[jezzupe]

3 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Well we're half way there , but you can use fruit sugars alone without the glucose bond, but remember any wet sugars must be turned to glass "crystal" prior to re solvent with water , its why I like white sugar. its already glassed or crystal and once the water evaporates it goes back to that state.

edit; all we trying to achieve is a wafer thin monolithic crystal nano matrix with a non resolvable film that has adhesion to the succeeding dissimilar based coating that prevents over absorption of any oils that may be present in topcoats.

I am not a big fan of "straight" or multiple layers of "spirit/shellac" as it's ultimate cure time is a long time and I feel multiple layers ends up being too "rubbery" . One thin layer of shellac I think is ok particularly ontop of sugar as I feel with those to very thin base coats you "wall off" the tubes a pits pretty well and prevent oil pooling 

 

[Tostra]

13 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I'd use the same thing all over, myself. If the spruce is unusually porous, you could mix in some of the marienglas. Otherwise rub on, spread around, buff off, cure. 

Thank you. I'll try it first, but I think maybe I'm more comfortable using spirit varnish on spruce and oil varnish on maple. It may be time for test pieces one of these days!

And Jezzupe I know. I just had to "split hairs"? Is that the saying in English? :-P
I did use hard sugar before, and I have to say I really like it. It's an option for sure!

 

[jezzupe]

1 minute ago, Tostra said:

Thank you. I'll try it first, but I think maybe I'm more comfortable using spirit varnish on spruce and oil varnish on maple. It may be time for test pieces one of these days!

And Jezzupe I know. I just had to "split hairs"? Is that the saying in English? :-P
I did use hard sugar before, and I have to say I really like it. It's an option for sure!

 

Well, it's hard to beat the price, thats for sure.

[David Burgess]

31 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Well we're half way there , but you can use fruit sugars alone without the glucose bond, but remember any wet sugars must be turned to glass "crystal" prior to re solvent with water , its why I like white sugar. its already glassed or crystal and once the water evaporates it goes back to that state.

How well does that ground hold up to perspiration?