19th Century English Violin - Possibly by H Woodney, Manchester

[Shelbow]

Dear All,

I have owned this violin for about 2 years now and recently it came back from being repaired. My plan is to loan it to one of the charitable Foundations that loan instruments out to Children / students. Hopefully it can be of help to someone.

I have very loosely shown it to a few people and get a kind of 19th century Betts School response. But I am curious if anyone has any ideas? To me some of the outline and purfling seems a bit Lockey Hill ish, but I'm sure no one else agrees with me on that.

The violin is stamped H Woodney Manchester at the end pin. He is referenced in a few books as a 19th century maker but also ran a big music shop in Manchester. I have quite a lot of info on him at home. It seems he claimed to be a maker on census records, but also on adverts in newspapers for his shop he stated that he stocked all the finest instruments from London. He died in the 1860s. I can provide more info on this when I get home.

I guess the likelihood is that this Instrument was made in London and branded for sale in his shop, but I like to think that he may of actually been a maker. In any case it was stored in an antiques shop in Barnsley for a while as far as I am aware. So it didn't travel too far from Manchester.

The instrument itself is a bit strange in many ways, which does make me wonder if it was something that he actually made.

The plates inside are worked in a very odd manner with almost a shelf to the edge and some questionable scooping. The overall size of the instrument is very large in all dimensions with the LOB being 362mm.

If you have any thoughts please fire away.

Thanks,

Shelbow

[Violadamore]

Always interested in obscure British examples.  Looks like there's not much arching, compared to most.  What's it sound and play like?  Any sign of inscriptions inside? 

[Shelbow]

Yeah it's pretty flat ish. I am told it speaks quite freely and is quite loud, but I don't think it's anything super amazing. Hopefully it is good enough for students.

No inscriptions inside I'm afraid.

[Shelbow]

In case anyone might come across this thread in the future, I am providing here some information that I have found in various archives regarding Mr Hugh Woodney of Manchester. I was looking into this fairly seriosuly at one point and then I gave up a bit.

It would be great to know if anyone has another instrument with this stamp or even another violin with a label inside.

 

Mr Hugh Woodney of Manchester -   1806/7 - 1864 / (58 Years old)

 

Census from 1851 - lists himself as Musical Instrument Maker - DOB estimated as 1807

 

Marriage in 1861 - He is listed as a Music Seller

 

 

Death record. He died on 4th March 1864 (DOD stated on probate listing)

 

Burial on 8th March 1864 - One thing to note is that he was buried by the same priest that had conducted his marriage in 1861

 

Probate for Hugh Woodney 14th April 1864 - Death 4th March 1864 - Flora Woodney as beneficiary

 

 

Possible details regarding his wifes death (I'm not 100% certain)

 

Brief mention in the British Violin Makers dictionary by Rev Morris, p 256

 

Reference in a doctoral Thesis by Nathan Booth, 2014 - Leisure and Masculinity in ‘Dear Old Dirty Stalybridge’, c.1830-1875.

 

Advert in North Chesire Herald, November, 1853

 

Mr Woodney endorsing PARR'S LIFE PILLS as part of an advert for liver treatment in the Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser, 7th July 1854. I believe this same advertisment appeared in many other local newspapers in the same year. Census records show only one Hugh Woodney listed in Manchester at this period and they give their job as music seller. So we can be fairly certain it is the same person.  Perhaps liver disease was his cause of death.The Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser

 

Slaters business directory listing 1846

 

Address listing in directory by Whellan of Manchester and Salford, 1853, p 353:

[Shelbow]

I believe there may be some mention of H Woodney in Lütgendorff's book, but I don't have a copy to check. Is anyone able to look at page 137 for me?

I believe he says:

"H. Woodney ist mir nur durch eine leidlich gute Viola bekannt"

"H. Woodney is known to me only through a passably good viola"

Although there is another mention in the main directory where he says that he is best as a viola maker.

[jacobsaunders]

8 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

I believe there may be some mention of H Woodney in Lütgendorff's book, but I don't have a copy to check. Is anyone able to look at page 137 for me?

I believe he says:

"H. Woodney ist mir nur durch eine leidlich gute Viola bekannt"

"H. Woodney is known to me only through a passably good viola"

Yes, Lütgendorff writes that on page 137 of volume one. Do you have any reason to believe that he made the instrument himself, or was he a businessman/dealer who sold work from elwhere?

[Shelbow]

Just now, jacobsaunders said:

Yes, Lütgendorff writes that on page 137 of volume one. Do you have any reason to believe that he made the instrument himself, or was he a businessman/dealer who sold work from elwhere?

Thanks Jacob, much appreciated.

In my humble amateur opinion I believe him to have been both, although the evidence is unfortuantely not strong to support his making activities.

I believe he may have made a few instruments himself but that he was primarily a dealer. He states on adverts that he stocks instruments from London and he was known to have sold many different types of instruments from his shop in Manchester (which moved locations a few time from what I have researched). He also states that he was a maker on adverts and lists himself as an instrument maker on the 1851 census. Of course people can say what they want in a census or on an advert so this doesn't really mean much. The Lütgendorff text also adds some potential validty to this, but once again it's possible he just branded instrumens by other makers and this is one of the instruments that Lütgendorff saw / played.

What I would really like to see is a few more examples of instruments with his stamp or label and see if there is any correlation in making style. Or I would like to try and ascertain if the violin I have is similar to the work of any of the known London makers.

I am happy to accept that there is a high chance that this instrument was supplied by makers in London and I acknowledge that this is most likely. However I was interested in general to see if there was any evidence to support that he was actually a maker. It seems that there might atleast be some evidence to support this.

In regards to this particual instrument, it just has enough odd things going on with the arching / plates for me to wonder if he may have actually made it. Also the fact that it is so big in size and only fits in 50% of violin cases makes me wonder. It doesn't seem to fit the work of the normal London makers.

In all honesty I have no idea and of course I will respect the view of the experts. I just wanted to find as much information about him as possible.

[TimRobinson]

I guess you were not able to trace any descendants? Did you find any records of children of the marriage with Flora (assuming she was the spouse)? Family stories of ancestors are generally just that, stories, but just maybe an instrument has been kept? However, if Flora was the widow the move to Ireland might not have helped in preserving things from the marriage.

[Shelbow]

6 hours ago, TimRobinson said:

I guess you were not able to trace any descendants? Did you find any records of children of the marriage with Flora (assuming she was the spouse)? Family stories of ancestors are generally just that, stories, but just maybe an instrument has been kept? However, if Flora was the widow the move to Ireland might not have helped in preserving things from the marriage.

I have not really gone that far with it. I couldn't find any children in the records when I checked, but I didn't look too hard. He was definitely married to a Flora Woodney, but if the lady that died in Ireland was his widow I am not sure at all. Age wise it seems plausible, she died in 1890 aged 79. H Woodney died in 1864 aged 58. They married in 1861 when he was about 55. If this Flora is the same one it would have made her about 50 at the time of marriage, this seems believable. Probably a bit late to be having children.

But in any case hopefully this thread is useful for anyone that might be interested to know more about H Woodney. I can only hope that other people come forward in the future with other instruments with this stamp or hopefully some kind of label.

Until then it shall hopefully go to help a student out somewhere.

[Shelbow]

This thread is already top result on Google for H Woodney Manchester so that is a good start.

[Shelbow]

OK, so I just found a very interesting document that might support the Flora who died in Newry, Ireland as being Hugh Woodney's wife.

I found an old document regarding renters and rents paid to The Anglesey Estate in Louth, Down and Galway 1810-1856 as part of the County Louth Archaeological Journal.

It seems that a Hugh Woodney was renting some land in Greenore, which is right on the coast of County Louth and very near Newry. It seems quite plausible this might have been a holiday home for them or something similar.

[Shelbow]

Hugh Woodney also listed as a Tenant in Carlingford which is just down the road from Greenore so it is possible he was born in Ireland. I found some other documents related to historic Anglo-Norman families living in County Down, and the Woodney family was listed. I am not sure if it is possible to find birth records in Ireland dating back that far, but perhaps there are some church records somewhere.

It seems that Carlingford has a high amount of people with the surname Woodney as I have discovered from some tombstone records so further investigation is needed.

It seems that there were several Hugh Woodneys in Carlingford spanning the 18th Century to the early 20th Century so it gets a bit confusing.

[Shelbow]

Some other interesting information. In the Slaters Directory of 1876 there is a listing for a Benn Woodney - London Rd Manchester under Musical Instrument Maker / Seller. London rd was the last address for Hugh Woodney's shop, and by this point he was dead 12 years, so perhaps he did have a relative or a child to take over the business?

I'm still not 100% on the Irish link but it is definitely worth investigating.

 

[Hempel]

41 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Some other interesting information. In the Slaters Directory of 1876 there is a listing for a Benn Woodney - London Rd Manchester under Musical Instrument Maker / Seller. London rd was the last address for Hugh Woodney's shop, and by this point he was dead 12 years, so perhaps he did have a relative or a child to take over the business?

I'm still not 100% on the Irish link but it is definitely worth investigating.

 

Hugh Woodney was most likely a widower when he married Flora Lee in 1861 and he would have been ~51 at the time.  Flora is listed in the marriage entry as "Spinster."  It's a bit improbable that this marriage resulted in offspring in time to be successor to H. Woodney's business.  

Mary Benn was a witness at that wedding.  Given that "Benn Woodney" is listed as apparent business successor to Hugh Woodney, you would probably make better headway finding out documentation that sheds light on the exact relationship between H. Woodney and Mary Benn.  Mary Benn was likely Woodney's daughter from a previous marriage.

[Shelbow]

Yes I was wondering about this Benn connection and when I searched Benn and Woodney together afterwards it kept flagging up that marriage record.

Do you mean she was 51 at the time of marriage rather than he? 

 

[Hempel]

Flora Woodney who died in Newry (actually Warrenpoint), Ireland in 1890 is indeed Hugh Woodney's widow (entry 407):

 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06092/4738554.pdf

[Shelbow]

3 minutes ago, Hempel said:

Flora Woodney who died in Newry, Ireland in 1890 is indeed Hugh Woodney's widow (entry 407):

 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06092/4738554.pdf

Excellent thanks, glad to see I was on the right track.

[Hempel]

4 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Yes I was wondering about this Benn connection and when I searched Benn and Woodney together afterwards it kept flagging up that marriage record.

Do you mean she was 51 at the time of marriage rather than he? 

 

Sorry, typo.  Hugh Woodney would have been ~55 at the time of his marriage to Flora.

[Shelbow]

Cool thanks. I shall keep investigating and see what I can find.

[Shelbow]

Just found some 1861 census information. The dates are a bit scrambled, it gives him as born in 1809 this time, but it must be the same person. Hugh Woodney Music seller living in Manchester. Confirms birthplace as Ireland.

This time he is living with relatives, some of whom are from America.

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59035b88e9379091b17e0205/hugh-woodney-1861-lancashire-ardwick-1809-?locale=en

 

[TimRobinson]

Fascinating.  I see there is a Carlingford Heritage Centre - I wonder if they could assist in anyway?  There might be  local family history association.  If all else fails, there is a local single grain malt - you might have to go on a site visit :-)  

[Hempel]

Edward Benn is listed in the 1861 UK census as "shop man to a music dealer."  Mary Benn is his niece.

From this we can gather that Edward Benn was Hugh Woodney's employee.

Woodney and Benn all originated from County Down in Ireland.

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59036207e9379091b1942db9/mary-benn-1861-lancashire-london-road-1839-?locale=en

[Shelbow]

Excellent many thanks, well that all ties in together nicely then and makes sense 

Now we just need a few more instruments to appear 

[matesic]

A century and more ago the Rev. Morris had never lain hands on one so yours could be the sole survivor

[Shelbow]

14 minutes ago, matesic said:

A century and more ago the Rev. Morris had never lain hands on one so yours could be the sole survivor

Well let's hope there are others, atleast there is a chance there may be a viola out there somewhere..........