Proteins in Varnish Systems

[scordatura]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Does anyone else think this is a lame way to avoid glue ghosts... by washing out the natural contrast of the entire violin?

To be picky, oxidation isn't the only thing going on, color-wise.  Torrefied wood is processed in an oxygen-free atmosphere, so it is not oxidized.  And UV does things too (although I don't know the chemistry of this, or if oxygen is involved).

True but I would think that unless you are subjecting the varnish to a continual source of UV the predominant exposure would be oxidation. Unless you are playing a lot of outdoor gigs. Albeit at a slower rate than UV would be. Just instinct here.

[Don Noon]

I had some wood stored on an overhead rack in my garage, where the only UV came from reflected light off of the driveway and thru the garage door windows.  The pieces on the rack showed very clear shadows of the rack, even in the places where the wood wasn't in direct contact with the rack.  Obviously UV shadows.

Then there's the question of how much the varnish block oxygen and UV.

If a violin is played outside for 1 gig per year, over 300 years the exposure can add up.

Just thoughts and observations... no final answers here.

[jezzupe]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Does anyone else think this is a lame way to avoid glue ghosts... by washing out the natural contrast of the entire violin?

To be picky, oxidation isn't the only thing going on, color-wise.  Torrefied wood is processed in an oxygen-free atmosphere, so it is not oxidized.  And UV does things too (although I don't know the chemistry of this, or if oxygen is involved).

Lame or not, I think "protein" washes, be it glue/glair/casein/vb are quite common now as well as historically and I think that "washing out the natural contrast of the entire violin?" will be determined by proportions/quality/application and that as long as the coating is very thin that "horrible looking washed out" grain is not the end result

For example if I'm not mistaken Davide Sora uses a casein or "protein" ground on many of his instruments , I don't think they looked "washed out" from what I have seen, nor any of the ones I have completed that have some sort of protein on them.

But I do think my explanation may be the driving force behind why many people use it, simply because it eliminates a very common problem

[JacksonMaberry]

Ghosts are a bummer, for sure. Homogenizing the wood surface with glue or other proteinaceous coatings is definitely a valid and oft used approach. It can be done in a way that looks really good! So far in playing with all sorts of sizing approaches, I haven't been able to make any protein look quite as good as a non-polar size (oils, resins, etc), but that could be used error or simply aesthetic preference. 

I have found that non polar sizes can stave off ghosts, too. 

[Jim Bress]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:02 AM, Don Noon said:

What about wetting?  Proteins usually are in water, which has a high surface tension and might not want to fully wet a rough surface (and at the microscopic level, wood is very rough).  It seems to me that good wetting is important for getting the best possible optical effects

 

45 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Ghosts are a bummer, for sure. Homogenizing the wood surface with glue or other proteinaceous coatings is definitely a valid and oft used approach. It can be done in a way that looks really good! So far in playing with all sorts of sizing approaches, I haven't been able to make any protein look quite as good as a non-polar size (oils, resins, etc), but that could be used error or simply aesthetic preference. 

I have found that non polar sizes can stave off ghosts, too. 

Polar compounds should have better wetting potential than non-polar compounds. Does increased wetting have a negative effect or are there other properties related to the polarity that you are referring to?

[David Beard]

The wetting is a very positive thing optically.

 

[JacksonMaberry]

16 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

 

Polar compounds should have better wetting potential than non-polar compounds. Does increased wetting have a negative effect or are there other properties related to the polarity that you are referring to?

On the contrary, I've found that non-polar, like linseed oil and dissolved or incorporated resins wet better than polar protein coatings. I'm not sure why, but it seems to work. 

[David Beard]

Proteins wet very well initially before they dry.   Oils and kind dry very slowly in contrast, and they progressesively wet more and more.  Some remain slightly plastic and progressively wetting essentailly forever.  These qualities of oil and related materials continue to smallest quantities at a microscopic level.

These quality of oils also make them mechanically dampening if the quantity is excessive.   (which is not generally desired)   

[jezzupe]

Back to Michael's initial question, I do think it interesting to ponder if "trace protein's" from things like nuts and other sources, say walnuts or cochineal extracts could "fool" or give false analysis readings, but it seems to me that "layers" under microscopic examination often show the use of protein layers from anything such as violins, to canvas sizing to furniture/woodwork sealers.

I think the key to using it on a violin with success is primarily proportion and that if you have anything resembling anything like a shell, film or skin after dry that you will have an ugly looking thing that will not age well and most likely check badly over time.

I do think there are many many ways to do the same thing and that in the end I guess it comes down to if anyone likes what you made well enough to buy it or at least say they like the way it looks

And that also trying to speculate on what your work will look like 100 years after your dead might be a nice distraction delusion of grandeur as to whatever "our" status or level of remembrance level might be among the living community that may care about such things, but I really don't think it's anything to get too hung up on, I would just caution whoever may read these things to always experiment and do tests on scrap material, the larger and more tests the better and to just be very sure and confident about your application and end results before proceeding to the actual instrument.

[Jim Bress]

58 minutes ago, David Beard said:

Proteins wet very well initially before they dry.   Oils and kind dry very slowly in contrast, and they progressesively wet more and more.  Some remain slightly plastic and progressively wetting essentailly forever.  These qualities of oil and related materials continue to smallest quantities at a microscopic level.

These quality of oils also make them mechanically dampening if the quantity is excessive.   (which is not generally desired)   

Thanks for the added content.

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I have found that non polar sizes can stave off ghosts, too. 

As long as the size is applied before the troublesome gluing operation, which is why I size the ribs before assembling the garland.

[Andreas Preuss]

17 hours ago, John Harte said:

It seems that proteins have been detected by various researchers in almost all varnish systems that have been studied including old Cremonese.  The big question is the nature or form of the protein presence.  Like the German instruments you mention, various old French and Italian (including some Cremonese) have been identified as having a glue size present within their varnish systems.  There are also instruments by various makers where the situation seems less obvious where no discrete protein based layer has been conclusively identified.

To spin this thought a bit further: 

First: if a scientists detects something there are always some questions linked to it. Where on the surface and on how many spots on the same instrument was Ingredient X detected, is there any possibility of contamination. 
 

Second: Then it is more important is to know why a certain ingredient was used. IMO the entire varnish system must make sense. And I see the function of the ground always in relation to what follows. 
 

Third: I think I said this before. To me it looks completely incongruent that a woodworker in the 18th century and earlier would use exactly the same whatever-porefiller-and-so-on method for a spruce top and the other maple parts. 

[David Beard]

2 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

To spin this thought a bit further: 

First: if a scientists detects something there are always some questions linked to it. Where on the surface and on how many spots on the same instrument was Ingredient X detected, is there any possibility of contamination. 
 

Second: Then it is more important is to know why a certain ingredient was used. IMO the entire varnish system must make sense. And I see the function of the ground always in relation to what follows. 
 

Third: I think I said this before. To me it looks completely incongruent that a woodworker in the 18th century and earlier would use exactly the same whatever-porefiller-and-so-on method for a spruce top and the other maple parts. 

For me, IMHO, these look like assumptions/biases that you are carrying into the situation.    

 

[Andreas Preuss]

1 minute ago, David Beard said:

For me, IMHO, these look like assumptions/biases that you are carrying into the situation.    

 

Maybe. 

But in the end we have to come out with something which makes sense. 
 

No matter how you see it, it’s like a puzzle which we put together from different sources of information.

[JacksonMaberry]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

As long as the size is applied before the troublesome gluing operation, which is why I size the ribs before assembling the garland.

For sure - if you've already got ghosts, nothing but more glue will obscure them. One must plan ahead.

[John Harte]

29 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

To spin this thought a bit further: 

First: if a scientists detects something there are always some questions linked to it. Where on the surface and on how many spots on the same instrument was Ingredient X detected, is there any possibility of contamination. 
 

Second: Then it is more important is to know why a certain ingredient was used. IMO the entire varnish system must make sense. And I see the function of the ground always in relation to what follows. 
 

Third: I think I said this before. To me it looks completely incongruent that a woodworker in the 18th century and earlier would use exactly the same whatever-porefiller-and-so-on method for a spruce top and the other maple parts. 

Re your first point, I agree.  However I have seen situations where something has been thought to be a contaminant when, in reality, it might well not have been.  Such perceptions can result from a too narrow focus or lack of knowledge on the part of the researcher.

Re your second point, I agree.  No argument here.

Re your third point, not so sure on this one.  If we are referring to something like Strad's system, I haven't seen any evidence yet to support your conjecture.

[jezzupe]

4 hours ago, Don Noon said:

As long as the size is applied before the troublesome gluing operation, which is why I size the ribs before assembling the garland.

Yes that was "#1" "don't get them in the first place", I think seal as you go is a good way to handle it. It can have it's own issues, but as long as you handle it carefully in between operations it can be a good way to go.

[James M. Jones]

For a few years I have enjoyed the Rubio red recipe . Does anyone know if a  stain  tea made of horse or rabbit excrement would contain protein? 
 

[JacksonMaberry]

14 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

For a few years I have enjoyed the Rubio red recipe . Does anyone know if a  stain  tea made of horse or rabbit excrement would contain protein? 
 

Trace, maybe. But rabbits and horses are herbivores, and renal/intestinal excretion in good working order will probably clear most everything. I too love the effects of the Roubo tincture, but prefer to use a synthetic version rather than muck about with dung and piss.

[Michael Szyper]

2 hours ago, James M. Jones said:

For a few years I have enjoyed the Rubio red recipe . Does anyone know if a  stain  tea made of horse or rabbit excrement would contain protein? 
 

20-30% of faeces are bacteria, which of course contain proteins. I would expect them to show up in a small portion in roubo stains

[James M. Jones]

10 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Trace, maybe. But rabbits and horses are herbivores, and renal/intestinal excretion in good working order will probably clear most everything. I too love the effects of the Roubo tincture, but prefer to use a synthetic version rather than muck about with dung and piss.

If I could ask . For  a synthetic version … what do you use ? Just the salt Peter and water ? Or other additions ? 

[James M. Jones]

8 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

20-30% of faeces are bacteria, which of course contain proteins. I would expect them to show up in a small portion in roubo stains

Thanks , That’s why I ask , of course there isn’t enough protein to act as a glue , I know with cows , bacteria actually eats the grass , the cows digestive tract eats the bacteria…. Now with horses and rabbits the process is much less efficient as I understand, but still …. Just a thought. 

 I have tried casin , did not care for the results seemed to plastic to my small view . Of course I realize different methods and people will have different results. 

[Michael_Molnar]

On 3/11/2022 at 9:27 AM, Michael Darnton said:

Annatto is beautiful stuff, but highly fugitive. I once made a lake pigment with it in hopes of protecting it, everyone agreed that the color was gorgeous, and after one night in the light box it was entirely gone.

Yes. I referenced your work and comments in my paper. You needed protein protection. My stains survive days in the light box. Nevertheless, I think stabilizing a lake is difficult - a horse of another color.   Maybe @Advocatus Diaboliknows something about this.

[Berl Mendenhall]

 Michael Molnar, interesting topic. I enjoyed reading. Many different theories and ideas. Varnish system topics have been debated on here for as long as there has been a M/N. 

[Michael_Molnar]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:36 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

That’s quite interesting.

Actually, I have one question here. Can a protein layer protect the colors such as anatto and saffron from fading? Both are not so lightfast. 

A layer will provide inadequate protection, IMO.

The protein must envelope the colorant molecules and lock their shape. This protects them from UV and oxidation.  You need to make a distemper, an aqueous proteinaceous medium. Any caseinate should work, but I settled on potassium caseinate. It’s easy to make or buy. 

I have no experience with saffron. But I think it will benefit from this treatment.