sitka spruce , is it worth it

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

I have soem 80 year old sitka , I was thinking of using it,  has anyone had any luck with it. or is it just better to stick with Engelman, I have seen some say that you  can thin the top a bit because of the strength to weight ratio.  any advice would be appreciated. thanks kevin 

[Don Noon]

Although I haven't used Sitka for a serious instrument (only an experimental top), I'd say it depends on the density and stiffness of the wood you have.  I have some Sitka in my stock that I think might work, and some Sitka that I would never use for a top (but might be OK for bass bars).

[bkwood]

I'm an amateur maker. I have a good source of Sitka Spruce, from one tree, that I've made 13 violins and one F Style mandolin from. Obviously I can't compare it to other wood but I find it carves well and has good tonal qualities. I also use Big Leaf Maple for sides and back.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I would think it important to get air dried Sitka and not the kiln dried airplane grade.

[Jim Bress]

Hey Kevin, I'm not thread jacking, just hoping to carve out some more details for you. Given the same density as Engelman (or European), how does Sitka compare tonally? For example, if your intent is to make a fiddle for Irish folk music would Sitka push the sound in a more favorable direction, or less favorable compared to Engelman? 

[bkwood]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I would think it important to get air dried Sitka and not the kiln dried airplane grade.

Agree.

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I would think it important to get air dried Sitka and not the kiln dried airplane grade.

2 minutes ago, bkwood said:

Agree.

Why?  Actual facts/experience, or just something that seems right?

 

[ernym]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

 I'd say it depends on the density and stiffness of the wood you have.  I have some Sitka in my stock that I think might work, and some Sitka that I would never use for a top (but might be OK for bass bars).

Agree. 

When I think of using Sitka, I can't help thinking of ct...I digress

[bkwood]

9 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Why?  Actual facts/experience, or just something that seems right?

 

You got me. Seems right but I never tried kiln dried. What can you say about the difference between the two? Is there any?

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

Sounds like generally Sitka not a great idea , what density would be best?

 

[ernym]

5 minutes ago, saintjohnbarleycorn said:

Sounds like generally Sitka not a great idea , what density would be best?

 

It could be, one way to find out. What is the density of yours? 

I have some torrefied .42 that I think might work but I don't know until I try it.  If time permits I'll make a west coast fiddle and pair the sitka with some nice chocolate bigleaf.  

ct is smilin'...

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I would think it important to get air dried Sitka and not the kiln dried airplane grade.

 

19 minutes ago, bkwood said:

Agree.

I too will ask why. I've made some successful cellos with Sitka tops. It happened to be wood from old bridges in Alaska, (that's why we no longer have the bridge between Alaska and Russia. It's those danged fiddlemakers who have screwed up the world.)

There is "kiln dried", and there is "kiln dried". Not all such processes are the same, or produce the same outcomes.

[donbarzino]

I have made several acceptable violins and many good basses using Sitka tops.

I have found a huge variation in density among different Sitka spruce samples.

 

[Don Noon]

46 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

There is "kiln dried", and there is "kiln dried". Not all such processes are the same, or produce the same outcomes.

When you come right down to it, torrefied wood could be considered "kiln dried".  Controlled heating in a controlled environment.  You can get everything from "not much" to ashes.

Just now, donbarzino said:

I have found a huge variation in density among different Sitka spruce samples.

.33 to .50 in my inventory.

[Jim Bress]

52 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

I too will ask why. I've made some successful cellos with Sitka tops. It happened to be wood from old bridges in Alaska, (that's why we no longer have the bridge between Alaska and Russia. It's those danged fiddlemakers who have screwed up the world.)

There is "kiln dried", and there is "kiln dried". Not all such processes are the same, or produce the same outcomes.

So was “the bridge to nowhere” just a violin maker’s scheme to get more wood?

[Strad O Various Jr.]

59 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

I too will ask why. I've made some successful cellos with Sitka tops. It happened to be wood from old bridges in Alaska, (that's why we no longer have the bridge between Alaska and Russia. It's those danged fiddlemakers who have screwed up the world.)

There is "kiln dried", and there is "kiln dried". Not all such processes are the same, or produce the same outcomes.

Airplane grade sitka is the strongest, hottest vacuum type kiln, there are lighter kiln processes that don't do as much damage, but kiln drying can really ruin the ring of a piece of wood IMHO

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Airplane grade sitka is the strongest, hottest vacuum type kiln, there are lighter kiln processes that don't do as much damage, but kiln drying can really ruin the ring of a piece of wood IMHO

I'm positive the my "kiln" runs bunches hotter than any commercial one, and I have documented proof that mine improves the ring of the wood.  Other process, I can't say... but as long as it's slow enough so that the effects are uniform through the thickness, IMO the ring would not suffer (after allowing the wood several months to stabilize after treatment).

Trying to speed up the process could do bad things.

Almost all kiln processes are NOT vacuum.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Perhaps you should ask Vuillaume how torrified wood worked out for him!

[David Beard]

Use Sitka or Engelman.

You do not want Italian Alpine spruce. (These are not the droids you want)

Look elsewhere.  Sitka, etc 

 

[Ken_N]

There is quite difference in Englemann as well. I got a package from the guy who sold on EBay from Colorado of three belies from .30 to .43 sg. What was his name? Simeon Chambers. The .30 worked nice with a 20 mm arch, and a stiff birch back. I would have my doubts using it on a del Gesu, but maybe 4mm is just right.

I don't see a problem with Sitka.  Bear claw is easy to get, and even pieces that are curly. The stuff I had for my cello didn't work, but I had some Red spruce for a violin that kept splitting on the grain too. 

80 year old wood, and you're questioning it? You already have it? Isn't that fair game?

[ernym]

I have .50 Sitka too heavy for anything instrument wise but perhaps it would make a nice throwing tomahawk handle. All the torrefied wood I've used all had an improved ring. 

 

[Jim Bress]

Did I hear bear claw? I’m pretty well stocked with Engelman. Although I have a couple crazy bear claw Sitka billets that I’ll try when the time is right. 

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Perhaps you should ask Vuillaume how torrified wood worked out for him!

I did, but he didn't answer, nor would he tell the details of his wood treatment (rumored to be baking in an oven and/or treating with chemicals).  Apparently it needs repeating:  not all wood treatments are the same.  In fact, I doubt if any of them are the same.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

2 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I did, but he didn't answer, nor would he tell the details of his wood treatment (rumored to be baking in an oven and/or treating with chemicals).  Apparently it needs repeating:  not all wood treatments are the same.  In fact, I doubt if any of them are the same.

If I remember correctly the problem was the tops cracked ,much ,more easily

[Don Noon]

5 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

If I remember correctly the problem was the tops cracked ,much ,more easily

I have also heard that they sound like crap... but I have no direct knowledge of any of this.  If chemicals were used, some could continue to weaken the wood with time.

I admit that torrefied wood is more brittle than fresh wood... and so are Cremonese tops, I suspect. Only experience will tell, and so far in 12 years I haven't seen any failures in normal use... only by a dropped instrument and someone trying to jam a rattlesnake rattle into a soundhole.