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Germany Factory violin?


Zdenek - Lavuta
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Please help me ID. 

I can mark them as: Tyrolean (Germany - Europe) baroque violin style of Jacob Stainer, Late 18th century?

The corner blocks athey are tight fitting with no gaps. There is rib material between the neck and block joint, the lower and upper rib in one piece, saddle is embedded in the top plate, beveled fingerboard, fixing baroque necks - screw etc.

In my opinion, the bottom plate of the violin and the neck (maple) were attacked by a worm before the violin was made. The holes (damaged) by the worms are perpendicular, the paths are shallow - no damage that penetrates deep or below the surface.

Please give your opinion - thank you.

More detailed photos -  https://photos.app.goo.gl/wERquoAdCPG2fEPHA

 

Violin Mirecourt, first half of 19th C (1).jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (9).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (15).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (16).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (17).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (18).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (19).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (21).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (27).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (24).jpg

Tyrolean (German) baroque violin style of Jacob Steiner (26).jpg

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Good question. :huh:

It looks like someone tried to camouflage (vandalise?) an okay(?) violin with a Czechoslovakian paint job. :blink:

Whoever varnished that unfortunate specimen deserves a fitting punishment...like never getting any cordial in their cherry cordials. :ph34r: 

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Wow for the back patch. The violin seems to have extensive worm damage throughout.

Given how worked-over it is, one may struggle to find what was original, e.g. linings etc.

One feature that caught my eye was the neck attachment with a screw driven diagonally down into the block from the fingerboard surface of the neck. This can be seen on some English violins.

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10 hours ago, Guido said:

Wow for the back patch. The violin seems to have extensive worm damage throughout.

Given how worked-over it is, one may struggle to find what was original, e.g. linings etc.

One feature that caught my eye was the neck attachment with a screw driven diagonally down into the block from the fingerboard surface of the neck. This can be seen on some English violins.

I'm not sure if the effort will be worth it.
Very damaged violin, I'll try to put it together (it will take a lot of work). All help is welcome: should I leave the linings that go over the block?

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10 hours ago, Rue said:

Good question. :huh:

It looks like someone tried to camouflage (vandalise?) an okay(?) violin with a Czechoslovakian paint job. :blink:

Whoever varnished that unfortunate specimen deserves a fitting punishment...like never getting any cordial in their cherry cordials. :ph34r: 

I'll try to save it - a long run

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17 minutes ago, Zdenek - Lavuta said:

I'm not sure if the effort will be worth it.
Very damaged violin, I'll try to put it together (it will take a lot of work). All help is welcome: should I leave the linings that go over the block?

Nothing wrong with the linings. I was randomly picking them out as an example where you seem to have a "feature" that could aid in ID, but given all the work the violin has had they may or may not be original.

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The back looks wormeaten. :blink: 
 

Isn’t here someone around who  offers for such cases his dustbin? :ph34r:

Could be used as a training object to fill worm channels with trough patches from wood taken from the inside to make it perfectly invisible. I mean if you have a million dollar fiddle with the same problem on your bench.;)

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2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

The back looks wormeaten. :blink: 
 

Isn’t here someone around who  offers for such cases his dustbin? :ph34r:

Could be used as a training object to fill worm channels with trough patches from wood taken from the inside to make it perfectly invisible. I mean if you have a million dollar fiddle with the same problem on your bench.;)

Very helpful - thanks for the comment

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The scroll and purfling remind me of an 18th century Scottish maker called Joseph Ruddiman. 

You can see in the attached pictures of two different Ruddiman violins some scroll similarities on one violin and similar purfling and corner work on the other.

Complete speculation of course.....

IMG_20220225_181743.jpg

IMG_20220225_181812.jpg

IMG_20220225_181924.jpg

IMG_20220225_181945.jpg

IMG_20220225_182016.jpg

IMG_20220225_181858.jpg

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2 hours ago, Shelbow said:

The scroll and purfling remind me of an 18th century Scottish maker called Joseph Ruddiman. 

You can see in the attached pictures of two different Ruddiman violins some scroll similarities on one violin and similar purfling and corner work on the other.

Complete speculation of course.....

IMG_20220225_181743.jpg

IMG_20220225_181812.jpg

IMG_20220225_181924.jpg

IMG_20220225_181945.jpg

IMG_20220225_182016.jpg

IMG_20220225_181858.jpg

Shelbow thank you for your patience, I will try to put it together. I understand that according to the photos, violins are difficult to identify. If it is not considered spam, I will show the final work.

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24 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Rue is referring to the very clumsy antiquing, which is most noticeable on the back where the lighter central portion is surrounded by a darker band.

I suspected Rue was referring to the relatively modern factory products from Luby (formerly Schoenbach). I just hadn't thought of the connection to this obviously old instrument. Especially since the silly antiquing of cheap violins from Luby was done by spray painting (like automobiles). This really cannot be mistaken for the instrument in question. Anyway, thanks for the replies.

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16 minutes ago, Guido said:

P.S.: Looks like you removed some photos including the one that shows the neck attachment.

20220224_144947.jpg

I'm sorry, I moved the detailed photos to the album. More detailed photos -  https://photos.app.goo.gl/wERquoAdCPG2fEPHA   I was looking for a similar violin here on the forum, unfortunately without success. The only guide - In the past, several methods of attaching Baroque necks were used in various European cities. Most of them included nails or screws or a combined neck and upper block. The neck can be removed and replaced without opening the main body of the tool. :-( I searched the internet for about 14 days, unfortunately I didn't find anything like that.

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Discussion:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/346817-id-violin-english-scottish/

You need to work on you search skills.... if you search Maestonet for "neck" AND "screw" and care to look through the search results you'll find a handful of violins with your neck attachment.

There was also a similar neck attachment using a wooden dowel in place of the screw which may well have been a precursor to the way the screw is used in your violin. The use of the dowel is discussed in "The British Violin" and associated with a circle of makers.

BTW, the shape of the upper and lower blocks is also typical for British violins of the time including the grain orientation, which you may have noticed is different from most violins you would have seen ;-) 

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13 hours ago, Guido said:

Discussion:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/346817-id-violin-english-scottish/

You need to work on you search skills.... if you search Maestonet for "neck" AND "screw" and care to look through the search results you'll find a handful of violins with your neck attachment.

There was also a similar neck attachment using a wooden dowel in place of the screw which may well have been a precursor to the way the screw is used in your violin. The use of the dowel is discussed in "The British Violin" and associated with a circle of makers.

BTW, the shape of the upper and lower blocks is also typical for British violins of the time including the grain orientation, which you may have noticed is different from most violins you would have seen ;-) 

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. If I learn to search and ask the right questions, Maestronet Forums and their members are Top. Useful Information - a treasure for me.

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