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placing of string holes in pegs (odd example)


Guido
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This is not how I place string holes in pegs. Nor is it anything I have ever seen.

However, it's a neat fiddle with presumably original pegs and the string hole placement is obviously intentional.

Who does that? Is/ was this the way to do it in some part of the world at some time...?

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Just a guess at someone's thinking:

As the pegbox wears and the peg holes enlarge, the string hole will move in progressively toward the far pegbox wall.  Someone might have placed the holes that way so that the pegs could be used for as long as possible, and so that the pegbox could get by as long as possible before rebushing.

Note--I'm not advocating for this practice….

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38 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Why do you think the pegs are original? Maybe the instrument went unused?  As the pegs wear in they will move off the wall . Perhaps not standard, but err on the side of caution eh? 

I’m aware of this effect, but having the holes in an awkward position so they are right a few decades down the road doesn’t seem sensible. Not much harm in drilling new holes when pegs need re-fitting either.

The violin is probably around mid 20th century. That’s a long time to wait… coincidentally holes and pegs were a little out of round now and I refitted them with the holes coming out in the middle.

I thought maybe it would be associated with a different way of fitting the strings and someone has seen this before?

If you don’t want to cross back over itself, the strings will all come off the peg at about the centre line.

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25 minutes ago, Guido said:

I’m aware of this effect, but having the holes in an awkward position so they are right a few decades down the road doesn’t seem sensible. Not much harm in drilling new holes when pegs need re-fitting either.

The violin is probably around mid 20th century. That’s a long time to wait… coincidentally holes and pegs were a little out of round now and I refitted them with the holes coming out in the middle.

I thought maybe it would be associated with a different way of fitting the strings and someone has seen this before?

If you don’t want to cross back over itself, the strings will all come off the peg at about the centre line.

I agree it’s odd , by today’s standard...

I guess I was wondering why you think the pegs are original, . Could The pegs be relatively new? , it looks like recent chalk fitting and very little wear , maybe the luthier was expecting a certain amount of wear in , wouldn’t take long if no compression was done during fitting.  I fit peg holes off the wall a bit more than that about two thirds  , but also spend some time fitting that area and trying to compress the matting surface by turning the reamer backwards... a maestronet trick ...  . Any idea of the history of the fiddle? 

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28 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

I agree it’s odd , by today’s standard...

I guess I was wondering why you think the pegs are original, . Could The pegs be relatively new? , it looks like recent chalk fitting and very little wear , maybe the luthier was expecting a certain amount of wear in , wouldn’t take long if no compression was done during fitting.  I fit peg holes off the wall a bit more than that about two thirds  , but also spend some time fitting that area and trying to compress the matting surface by turning the reamer backwards... a maestronet trick ...  . Any idea of the history of the fiddle? 

The fresh chalk was me trying to see if I can dress them to good function but ended up reaming and shaving to get them round again. They are on a 1:20 taper.

Them being original is just my guess from looking at them, not just the old taper, but also the relatively small diameter. And they do show some age which might fit with the violin.

The violin I’ll post for ID when I get around to it. Also has an odd combination of features…

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10 hours ago, Guido said:

If you don’t want to cross back over itself, the strings will all come off the peg at about the centre line.

Why wouldn't you want the string to cross back over itself? Crossing back over makes the string much less likely to slip on the peg, and I consider this to be the preferred practice.

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28 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Why wouldn't you want the string to cross back over itself? Crossing back over makes the string much less likely to slip on the peg, and I consider this to be the preferred practice.

I also consider it common practice to wrap the string over the tail end at least once to essentially “bind”‘the string in place. This is especially useful when the string hole is larger than necessary.

Placing the hole close to the thumb side of the peg does have the disadvantage of minimizing space for the string to fit between the hole and the pegbox wall, so placement closer the center tends to work better, although one can sometimes get by by increasing the number of turns on the opposite side of the hole. 

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8 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Why wouldn't you want the string to cross back over itself? Crossing back over makes the string much less likely to slip on the peg, and I consider this to be the preferred practice.

Maybe you mean to to cross over once at the beginning, and then wind it up 4-5 more turns. As the holes are placed you can only do those windings towards the middle of the peg where then all the stings will come off the peg at about centre line.

What I was meaning to say, if you want the string to come off the peg closer to the wall (and run in a more or less straight line over the nut), you would have to wind a few turns towards the middle and then back onto itself as a second layer.

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24 minutes ago, Guido said:

Maybe you mean to to cross over once at the beginning, and then wind it up 4-5 more turns. As the holes are placed you can only do those windings towards the middle of the peg where then all the stings will come off the peg at about centre line.

I disagree.

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8 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

common practice to wrap the string over the tail end at least once to essentially “bind”‘the string in place.

I picked up this trick; make the first loop around the peg on the head side of the tail end.  Make the second loop around the peg on the other side of the tail end.  Then start winding toward the head.  It guarantees the string wraps over itself, without a lot of bother

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I put the holes 40% of the way from the head side wall of the box to the other side. I also wrap the string once on the side of the "tail" away from the head and then cross over to the head side of the tail and wrap smoothly toward the head.

Not to hijack this thread but it gives an opportunity to ask a couple of questions about string installation. In a recent thread someone said that they  had a fiddle which buzzed when the G string was touching the peg box wall and the buzz disappeared when the string was moved. Have other people experienced this? I generally want the strings to be as close to the wall as possible without actually binding or pulling the peg inward.

Secondly I often spend more time than I would like getting pegs heads perfectly aligned so that they allow easy tuning in playing position. The only way I know to do this is to install the strings let them stretch and then guesstimate the amount of string which needs to be pulled in or out of the peg to align the head when at correct pitch. This sometimes takes several attempts to get just right and takes way too much time which clients don't want to pay for but complain if the pegs aren't perfect. I also suspect that repeated loosening and tightening of the strings doesn't do them any good either. Anybody have a efficient system for this?

 

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43 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I put the holes 40% of the way from the head side wall of the box to the other side. I also wrap the string once on the side of the "tail" away from the head and then cross over to the head side of the tail and wrap smoothly toward the head.

Not to hijack this thread but it gives an opportunity to ask a couple of questions about string installation. In a recent thread someone said that they  had a fiddle which buzzed when the G string was touching the peg box wall and the buzz disappeared when the string was moved. Have other people experienced this? I generally want the strings to be as close to the wall as possible without actually binding or pulling the peg inward.

Secondly I often spend more time than I would like getting pegs heads perfectly aligned so that they allow easy tuning in playing position. The only way I know to do this is to install the strings let them stretch and then guesstimate the amount of string which needs to be pulled in or out of the peg to align the head when at correct pitch. This sometimes takes several attempts to get just right and takes way too much time which clients don't want to pay for but complain if the pegs aren't perfect. I also suspect that repeated loosening and tightening of the strings doesn't do them any good either. Anybody have a efficient system for this?

 

 

I do the same to align peg heads for convenient grip when tuning.

I also have to try a few times to get it just right.

I thought about measuring the string movement (easy at the beginning of the silk winding), while turning the peg into perfect position. This length of string could be moved in or out.

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3 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

I picked up this trick; make the first loop around the peg on the head side of the tail end.  Make the second loop around the peg on the other side of the tail end.  Then start winding toward the head.  It guarantees the string wraps over itself, without a lot of bother

I (think I) understand. So to do this, you would prefer the holes as pictured?

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There were a couple shops out here that used to wind the strings up against pegbox. Jammed in place, the strings slipped less. This was mostly on inexpensive instruments in during the 70s.

Check the taper? The pegs from these shops generally were not fit very well, at least how I remember it, at the time. The era of mostly steel strings in school., pre- Dominant. 

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I too align my pegs for comfort.  After taking the string up to pitch I estimate the change of angle needed and the proportion of the circumference of the peg this represents then try to adjust the string in the hole by that much. With care I find it only takes one or two goes to get it close enough.

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