Please Help Prevent the Poaching of Pernambuco

[HoGo]

3 hours ago, Rue said:

Much of the upcoming gemeration is leaning towards recycling, sustainability, saving the planet...etc.

Agree. If you compare just the price of rehair/restoring of older bows with price of new cheap disposable bows it may look not worth it but will the disposable bow be generally better than the restored older bow? I believe that just the quality of cheap bow's hair vs. rehaired will make the restored bow much better player and if one selects the older bows with decent stiff sticks and not severely damaged they will be worth it and the point of saving trees along with this is added value alone.

[Brad Dorsey]

5 hours ago, violinsRus said:

…it’s the other stuff, new tip plates, frog damage, lappings and leathers that make restoring some of the older stuff questionable.

Yes.

 

4 hours ago, Rue said:

I think with some appropriate marketing it can be done...

What kind of marketing could induce a player to pay the several hundred dollars that a bow restorer would have to get to fix an old bow such as violinRus refers to rather than buy a new Chinese bow for $50 or $75?  Some of these Chinese bows are not that bad.

[Brad Dorsey]

duplicate post

[Brad Dorsey]

triplicate post

[Rue]

...wouldn't be that hard...

A throw away bow just needs to become "unacceptable" in the mainstream... like single use plastics, etc.

[GoPractice]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

 ...

How about we stop dismissing so many old bows as "not worth rehairing" (provided they can be rehaired).

I'll bet a lot of "not worth it" bows are decent players.

What we need to do is rethink our thinking. 

I do not want to unfairly single out Glasser bows, as there are Glassers that are playable and rehair- able. But there are very bad bows out there, many from Asia before a time when they improved. Many school districts or parents do not know nor are they able to afford "better." In the past, understandably or regrettably? there have been some terrible rehairs on some bows, including many Glassers ( and non- Glassers ) with "reusable" plugs that were ultimately epoxied into place and frogs butchered to get the hair in place. These bows were resurrected at least once. Or the "hair" could be washed in some instances where the kids had orchestra after lunch or after school and the their hands were just dirty. Anyway, the desperation is obvious when teachers and parents do their best to make things work. I once came across an abused Glasser bow where a silver frog was jammed into place. I went through the entire stock of bows looking for the matching button, but it was not in the pile. 

The more recent artificial, composite or "carbon" bows have varied in quality, but the better ones are straight and have a responsive camber. Kids learn to properly tighten and loosen bows and the livelier bows offer some feedback. Some were indeed too stiff and some too flexible. The better vendors will take them back. But for the price, they do work. I have grown fond of them for teaching in schools. When I buy them for students, I do try as many as allowed by the very patient shop keeper. I offer to rosin the non-rosined so as to try as many as possible. I buy about a dozen at a time. If they treat the composite bow well, we move up to a wood bow, and it does cost 10x more.

The reality for most shops, is that it's not worth rehairing most inexpensive bows. And for those who do not know, the "no name" budget bows might take 3~4x longer to rehair because they are not constructed very well. There are very few shops willing to donate that kind of time. I have not rehaired any school bows in three years, so have not seen the latest batch. I do try to cut functional plugs that could theoretically be reused and always note the date. Generally the spreader might be mashed in...

I know some thoughtful school teachers who have started doing their own rehairs. To save money. 70 rehairs might cost the music fundraisers $3.5k. Given a program of 200 kids, that's a third of the bows every year. If that teacher rehairs 20 bows throughout the year, she saves enough to buy 3 violins, 2 violas or 1 reasonably nice cello. And these bows are reused. The bundle rehair price is less than the price of the Guitar Center bows.

These cheap student bows only need basic rehairs. We will send Gilles Nehr to the ASTA conventions to teach all the curious teachers simple rehairs. Frankly, if the bow quality were a bit better ( thus more expense ) I believe it would not be that difficult to have school teachers learn how to replace hair. One teacher even offered to tie and knot the hair for all her bows, which is a start...

To Rue's point, student bows might be redesigned to be more modular and have a simple mechanism where the bow hairs are pre- mounted into an aluminum clip or something similar where it can be clipped or pinched into place. The Tête-Bêche is an example of a bow made in pieces.  I have strung various bow like objects from mail- order fishing supply store mis- matched rod clearance parts. 2~4 wt tips and mids work ok. Epoxy on a frog then recurve the hair into place on eyelets.  

[Mr. Bean]

I may be lucky (half-retired and no employees) to have the time for rehairing a "W Doerfler or comparable" ex rental or trade-in bow from time to time and offer them for an attractive price as "Refurbished" in my webshop to give them a new life instead of lying around in a box under the bench for years. They will always be sold within a reasonable time.

[HoGo]

The CF bows are bad for environment, there is quite a bit of dangerous waste produced during manufacture so if that was calculated into price they wouldnt be so affordable.

There are beginning bowmakers or restorers who would welcome some extra work to gain experience and not charge the big $ that renowned shops do. There is also possibility of outsourcing refurbishing to less expensive regions, like sending dozen bows to let's say Romania, where cost would be perhaps quarter of typical US charge.

[David Burgess]

Last time I looked into it, the major cause of deforestation in Brazil was clear-cutting to make way for agriculture and cattle farming. Soy beans is a major export, and so is beef. There's still a lot of sugar cane production, but much of the alcohol produced from that is used domestically as a motor fuel.

I don't know what the proportional contribution is of harvesting wood for bows.

This paragraph seemed a little weird, as if to imply to someone who doesn't know about bow making, that pernambuco (by weight) is as valuable as cocaine:

"Today, the species is largely exasperated in Brazil but international demand for the wood has only increased. As quantities of any remaining legal stock in Brazil diminish, the price for Pau-Brasil has increased dramatically over the years, and a series of frauds have surfaced in Brazil designed to mask illegal sourcing of rare and slow-growing pau-brasil, in order to fulfill international market demand, including in the United States. By way of comparison, a custom viola bow made of rare pau-brasil wood weighing approximately sixty (60) grams, can sell for more than $6,200 USD in the United States, roughly the same price per gram as cocaine."

[James M. Jones]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Last time I looked into it, the major cause of deforestation in Brazil was clear-cutting to make way for agriculture and cattle farming. Soy beans is a major export, and so is beef. There's still a lot of sugar cane production, but much of the alcohol produced from that is used domestically as a motor fuel.

I don't know what the proportional contribution is of harvesting wood for bows.

This paragraph seemed a little weird, as if to imply to someone who doesn't know about bow making, that pernambuco (by weight) is as valuable as cocaine:

"Today, the species is largely exasperated in Brazil but international demand for the wood has only increased. As quantities of any remaining legal stock in Brazil diminish, the price for Pau-Brasil has increased dramatically over the years, and a series of frauds have surfaced in Brazil designed to mask illegal sourcing of rare and slow-growing pau-brasil, in order to fulfill international market demand, including in the United States. By way of comparison, a custom viola bow made of rare pau-brasil wood weighing approximately sixty (60) grams, can sell for more than $6,200 USD in the United States, roughly the same price per gram as cocaine."

What’s the difference between cocaine and a violin bow ? 
one goes under the nose the other goes up the nose! 
   Looking at a map of Brazil and knowing the Pernambuco tree only grows in a narrow strip along the coast . I also notice Brazil seems to have virtually no national parks , as if the entire country is held privately, this would make it very hard to control cutting. Does anyone know if This group is purchasing lands to be held in trust,? Similar to the nature conservancy here in the states? 

[uncle duke]

22 hours ago, violinsRus said:

The ones I don't rehair on principle are the old fiberglass Glasser tomato stakes

I learned everything violin playing wise using one of them, under lengthed at that. 

I thought of maybe drilling a horizontal hole in the tip to install weight like a nail or nail shaped piece of lead so that the tip end of the bow would stay on the strings better. 

I have never used a full length fiberglass bow though, are they better than the shorter ones? 

[Rue]

43 minutes ago, uncle duke said:

....

I have never used a full length fiberglass bow though, are they better than the shorter ones? 

?

Better than a shorter bow...but for what?

And unless there is a specific reason to use a short bow (child, etc.)...wouldn't the 'standard' size be the go-to?

[GoPractice]

Yeah, viola bows in the United States approximately weigh 70 grams.

[Bill Yacey]

6 hours ago, HoGo said:

The CF bows are bad for environment, there is quite a bit of dangerous waste produced during manufacture so if that was calculated into price they wouldnt be so affordable.

There are beginning bowmakers or restorers who would welcome some extra work to gain experience and not charge the big $ that renowned shops do. There is also possibility of outsourcing refurbishing to less expensive regions, like sending dozen bows to let's say Romania, where cost would be perhaps quarter of typical US charge.

A carbon fiber bow though, will last almost forever as the stick doesn't break or wear. Theoretically, a well made carbon  fiber bow could be rehaired hundreds of times and last centuries of continuous use.

[Rue]

That's part of the problem though...'theoretically'...

Theoretically, if we manufactured goods to last and be repairable...we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Bill Yacey]

I guess a decision has to be made between buying a throw away product, or something that can be used indefinitely. If sustainability is a deciding factor, it seems to me that something that can be used for a lifetime is the better choice.

[Rue]

As human beings, our 'throw away' culture has always been around (hence anthropologists digging stuff up from 3000 year old midden heaps)...but nothing like it's been since the 1960s.

We also have the power to, and certainly can, manage 'sustainability' very well.  It wouldn't even be all that hard.

Now we just have to get governments, manufacturers, retailers and the buying public on-board.  Oh wait!  We've been trying to do that - mostly unsuccessfully.  

However - hats off to McDonalds for bringing back the paper straw! (Now, can we get rid of the plastic lids?  Hmm?).

And hats off to our local mega-grocery stores.  The bread bags have returned to being made of cellophane!  Let's keep the momentum going!

...eventually we may even get around to violin bows...

Remind me how fast slugs crawl?

[Bill Yacey]

15 minutes ago, Rue said:

As human beings, our 'throw away' culture has always been around (hence anthropologists digging stuff up from 3000 year old midden heaps)...but nothing like it's been since the 1960s.

We also have the power to, and certainly can, manage 'sustainability' very well.  It wouldn't even be all that hard.

Now we just have to get governments, manufacturers, retailers and the buying public on-board.  Oh wait!  We've been trying to do that - mostly unsuccessfully.  

However - hats off to McDonalds for bringing back the paper straw! (Now, can we get rid of the plastic lids?  Hmm?).

And hats off to our local mega-grocery stores.  The bread bags have returned to being made of cellophane!  Let's keep the momentum going!

...eventually we may even get around to violin bows...

Remind me how fast slugs crawl?

The whole capitalistic system is driven by sales, and a need for increasing sales to keep up with inflation and the increasing cost of living. It's a continually increasing upward spiral that only serves to drive up the costs of everything.

It's not in the manufacturers best interest to make anything that lasts long term.

[James M. Jones]

7 minutes ago, Rue said:

As human beings, our 'throw away' culture has always been around (hence anthropologists digging stuff up from 3000 year old midden heaps)...but nothing like it's been since the 1960s.

We also have the power to, and certainly can, manage 'sustainability' very well.  It wouldn't even be all that hard.

Now we just have to get governments, manufacturers, retailers and the buying public on-board.  Oh wait!  We've been trying to do that - mostly unsuccessfully.  

However - hats off to McDonalds for bringing back the paper straw! (Now, can we get rid of the plastic lids?  Hmm?).

And hats off to our local mega-grocery stores.  The bread bags have returned to being made of cellophane!  Let's keep the momentum going!

...eventually we may even get around to violin bows...

Remind me how fast slugs crawl?

There is a thing called “planned Obsolescence “ it’s an actual thing , google it for more history, but in a nutshell, during ww2 the industrial complex became so large and efficient that when the war ended many of the factories we’re facing shut down , because in essence they could now produce more say hammers in an hour than could be sold in years , so “they” heads industry developed this idea of planned obsolescence to insure steady work … things like new car models and new clothes fashion every year encourage new purchases , machining tolerance and materials selection because go to ways to see that a hammer would only work so long before breaking, and small bits like threads on screws would be left just under or over size so they would strip out …. All the while sort of blaming the consumer who supposedly can’t drive a nail or screw a screw …. There is a reason why Dodge quarter panels rust out ….now there are groups pushing for what are being termed “right to repair “laws … laws that require manufacturers to produce goods capable of repair. 

[Rue]

Oh yes!  I know.  The current appalling state of the planet is totally on us.

All I'm saying is that we can all live, and live well, with a different buy/sell outlook.

Build things to last and charge more.  Build things to be repaired - and go back to having a repair market, etc.  Grow the 'recycled product' business.

We are smart enough to keep capitalism alive and thriving without unnecessarily destroying our world.

BTW...obviously violins and bows ARE excellent examples of creating goods that last indefinitely and when they are at the end of their lives, decompose.

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

That's part of the problem though...'theoretically'...

Theoretically, if we manufactured goods to last and be repairable...we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Most modern things are repairable. It's just that with the reductions in manufacturing costs, these days, it's often less expensive to replace than repair.

Another obstacle is that an older repaired appliance might not have the latest tech. I don't know why the F--- I would want or need a washing machine connected to the internet, but I guess that's important to some people.

[Rue]

Sure.  Technology and development are important.

Regardless, the planet has to rethink what our actual necessities are - and then what niceties we can enjoy that don't damage the environment. Pandering unneeded applications for the sake of making money isn't a good thing.  No one needs a washing machine connected to the internet. You may want one...but you don't need one.  

We really need to prioritize and clearly distinguish needs from wants.

[GoPractice]

Is it possible to agree that better design last beyond a life time? I collect bottle cap openers. I have had the good fortune to meet very wealthy persons and one collects centuries old keys. No function, possible values? Only intellectual.

"Disposable" bows now are similar to the inexpensive bows of materials of the past. But now, as Maestro Yacey points out, some of these modern composite bows will last at least 40 years in the classroom as, many Glassers did. I have lost at least a dozen fractional Pernambuco bows to students and classrooms as well as a wonderful Peccatte- copy that I performed on for ten years. What can I do? Body slam pre-teens? It was my fault for taking the expensive bow. Therefore I no longer teach with any valued bows.

Not to cause a market spike, but if a good Coda bow is inexpensive at a shop, swap meet, Italian restaurant, it gets snapped up. The workmanship is good and it will withstand years of abuse. Beautifully German replacement frogs are not that expensive. Some Paulus frogs are exquisite. Even so so sticks, can be revived. It is important to make the effort.

What we can do now to preserve older student bows, is to protect the bow with a wrap at the hold. Use real silver for winding.

If a consensus could be reached, people here might help in establishing guidelines. There could be a Maestronet designed, ASTA approved student bow, manufactured in China, Germany and ??? assembled wherever they are sold. A student bow for the generations. Nothing beats a good mechanical pencil. Your choice: Stadtler, Pentel, ??? What's the best graphite? What's the criteria for a good replacement student bow. What's the criteria for a good professional bow? I have spent thousands of hours in meetings.... if egos do not get in the way, something interesting can happen. A foundation that donates bows? At the crossroads. What do we do? You do not want me on your team...

Coda, Arcus, are making an effort. 

[GoPractice]

11 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 ...

Another obstacle is that an older repaired appliance might not have the latest tech. I don't know why the F--- I would want or need a washing machine connected to the internet, but I guess that's important to some people.

Kids are growing up with their siblings Siri and Alexa. She has a good memory. She knows alot but that is also kinda creepy.

[HoGo]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Most modern things are repairable. It's just that with the reductions in manufacturing costs, these days, it's often less expensive to replace than repair.

Well, there is REPAIRABLE and "repairable"... You can see it in modern cars - they are designed and optimized for robotic assmbly line and the original order of assembly makes many later repair jobs utterly expensive like when you need to disassemble half of the vehicle to replace leaking ad-blue tank in newish VW. They just pray that these things won't happen too often while they are under warranty and after that they just don't care.

In modern alectronics or kitchen appliances they just don't supply spare single parts at all, just "assemblies" that cost so much that it is cheaper to buy new appliance. I needed one simple rubber valve for my dishwasher and the only option was to buy whole drain pump with hoses. I just stopped at nearby recycling facility and they took me to a heap of those pumps  prepared for recycling so I could find one that matches mine and take just the drain valve. The reapir took me whole 5 minutes of time and zero money. Folks are dumping 2 years old machines just because it is cheaper (or almost) to buy new than repair.

Or like in laptops where new motherboard (which is most common failed part) costs nearly as much as new laptop.

Of course this politics drives markets and keeps economy up and growing as folks buy moreand more new stuff. But I believe we're at the very limit of possible unsupported growth and Corona simply shows us that emperor is naked and we have to do something for real LONG TERM sustainability which is impossible with this fast-stuff economy. We are too used to not paying for our negligence and the whole problem created by wasting is just being swept under the carpet.