T2 Auction, Holy smokes!

[Dwight Brown]

This viola went at over $30,000.00 despite looking like it will need a like amount of restoration.  I would love to know the story.

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3788914688&filter_key=

Some wood went for rather high prices as well

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3792142336&filter_key=

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3757834240&filter_key=

This violin did well too.

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3789389824&filter_key=

again I would love to know the story.

 

DLB

 

[Shelbow]

Yep I am with you on all the above. Curious to know more.....

[Dwight Brown]

10 grand for a 'cello back!  You would have to be pretty sure of yourself to start in on that baby!  I have a feeling it isn't anything like a record.

DLB

[Shelbow]

2 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

10 grand for a 'cello back!  You would have to be pretty sure of yourself to start in on that baby!  I have a feeling it isn't anything like a record.

DLB

It would be great if a maker could comment on this lot. Is this an exceptionally rare or fine piece of wood for a cello? I mean it looks pretty nice. Or is there something deeper going on. Is this wood that came from another workshop before Rogers and is like 200 years old or something etc etc.....

[Dwight Brown]

Just now, Shelbow said:

It would be great if a maker could comment on this lot. Is this an exceptionally rare or fine piece of wood for a cello? I mean it looks pretty nice. Or is there something deeper going on. Is this wood that came from another workshop before Rogers and is like 200 years old or something etc etc.....

It is from Maestro Hargraves stash so that gives it some interest right there.

 

DLB

[Shelbow]

Oh totally but so was a lot of the wood in this sale and a load of stuff at the last Amati wood sale, but nothing went quite this crazy.

[Dwight Brown]

That viola I thought was interesting but the back alone is a war zone.  There must be something special there.

 

DLB

[Shelbow]

I presume enough people thought that it is a Daniel Achatius Stadlman viola. I know nothing of that maker but it seems potentially a bit rare if it was genuine.

[Guido]

It's not just the dozen or so obviously rather crazy prices.

It's more like 80%-90% of items ended up surprisingly expensive.

Some unspectacular midfield stuff like

 https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3775315968&filter_key=

...and many (or just about all) others.

Something doesn't match with my mental map of the general territory anymore.

[Dwight Brown]

It also came very close to being a white glove auction. Only about three lots didn’t sell. Tarisio has always treated me very well so I’m happy for them in any case.

DLB

[John Alexander]

I am curious as well.  The folks at Tarisio research and see more instruments than most.  They are experts at evaluating condition and provenance.  I would think their estimates are generally very accurate.  Often I have noticed items in T2 selling for far more than retail.  These items usually have no certificate and need repairs.  If the attribution were clear and condition good, it would sell in the fine auction.  I am assuming the bidders are not in the trade and have more cash than common sense.  A good recipe for sellers and auctioneers.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, John Alexander said:

If the attribution were clear and condition good, it would sell in the fine auction.

I don't think Tarisio will put instruments into the fine auction unless they can stand behind the attribution. They write "pro-forma certificates" for some instruments and will stand behind anything that they list as "by" a maker (including bows).

So anything questionable or they just can't tell will go in the T2. Also, an instrument that is not set-up and playable is likely to end up in T2 even if the attribution is good, unless it is particularly interesting.

1 hour ago, John Alexander said:

Often I have noticed items in T2 selling for far more than retail.

I wonder if the prices for some of these items are going up comparably at the retail level.

 

[Jim Bress]

I'm pretty happy with $40 winning bid for a set of cello ribs. At one point in the auction I started looking at the bidders. You had different groups bidding for wood, books, instruments. On the wood side the (what I assume are) makers dropped off when the prices didn't make sense.

[GeorgeH]

I liked this:

 

Quote

 

AN INNOVATIVE CHORD PLAYING BOW

Stamped, "Vega Bach bow, reg patent, Knud Vestergaard, Violinmaker, Viby J. Denmark, 925 S."

Silver mounted. Bamboo wood.
Trigger mounted adjustment for switching between Baroque and Modern playing styles. Sold with its case.

 

I saw "Tossy" Spivakovsky play the Chaconne in Dm using one many decades ago. I always wanted to try one, but not for $1,320.

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199699456&cpid=3228663808&filter_key=

[Michael Darnton]

Perhaps someone thinks he has found a Giulio Cesare Gigli viola and wants to spend the rest of his life restoring it . . . 

[Yogic]

Many instruments in the T2 auctions especially above the 5k estimate are outright fakes and Tarisio is well aware.I remember in one of the past T2 auctions there was a violin labelled Giancarlo Guicciardi. The violin was elaborate with all the brandings etc looking completely genuine. I called the maker and spoke with his daughter who was wild that Tarisio was auctioning a fake instrument when they were well aware its fake as both Ingles & Hayday and Tarisio had previously reached out to them to check its authenticity. So in this case its not true that Tarisio was unsure of its attribution.

I believe most of these instruments head to the Asian markets where they may be sold as genuine.

 

[Shelbow]

And in 100 years time when no one is left to say otherwise they will probably get certified as genuine............

[Jeny Mahon]

47 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

And in 100 years time when no one is left to say otherwise they will probably get certified as genuine............

If mankind is still here in 100 years time, I would hope that there would be one or two experts around to evaluate instruments properly  It's been going on what, 300 years now, and there has always been  someone we all look to for the final word; it's not what they say but what they write.  I always have to remember that fiddles live much longer than we do, and the best ones will still be here, as they were before we were born and will continue to be long after we are gone.  There will always be someone with the knowledge.  We'll be long gone in 100 years, but I have faith the craft will continue.  

[Shelbow]

Oh I m sure there will still be experts, but I wonder how many things that are more obscure fakes might get through the net and end up being classed as genuine when the makers or their families are no longer around to say otherwise.

[martin swan]

13 hours ago, Yogic said:

Many instruments in the T2 auctions especially above the 5k estimate are outright fakes and Tarisio is well aware.I remember in one of the past T2 auctions there was a violin labelled Giancarlo Guicciardi. The violin was elaborate with all the brandings etc looking completely genuine. I called the maker and spoke with his daughter who was wild that Tarisio was auctioning a fake instrument when they were well aware its fake as both Ingles & Hayday and Tarisio had previously reached out to them to check its authenticity. So in this case its not true that Tarisio was unsure of its attribution.

I believe most of these instruments head to the Asian markets where they may be sold as genuine.

 

Sorry I don't understand.

You seem to be saying that Tarisio didn't sell the violin as genuine, but put it in T2 as "labelled".  I'm not sure what you think Tarisio did wrong?

The whole point of T2 is that it's an unregulated trade auction where the buyer makes up their mind as to the value of the item.

[Yogic]

T2 claims to focus on instruments with uncertain attribution. When the maker has confirmed to them it was counterfeit, why would they still include it in the auction ?  While I am aware it is unregulated, including counterfeits with full knowledge of its provenance is poor business practice. You can possibly argue that they sell it as 'labelled' so they are well within the rules but it goes against their stated norm of including instruments whose attribution is uncertain which was not the case with this violin

[Urban Luthier]

I bought one lot of viola wood.

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, Yogic said:

T2 claims to focus on instruments with uncertain attribution. When the maker has confirmed to them it was counterfeit, why would they still include it in the auction ?  While I am aware it is unregulated, including counterfeits with full knowledge of its provenance is poor business practice. You can possibly argue that they sell it as 'labelled' so they are well within the rules but it goes against their stated norm of including instruments whose attribution is uncertain which was not the case with this violin

This is sophistry. 

What T2 means by "uncertain attribution" is instruments for which they are not prepared to guarantee the attribution. They don't offer to exclude instruments with incorrect labels!

For an attribution to be certain you need to know not only what it isn't but also what it is.

You could argue that if a contemporary violin turns up in T2, that's pretty much a guarantee that it isn't genuine.

 

[Ron1]

Possibly recent high sales are a result of the current inflationary trend- folks are investing more in physical items which tend to hold value, rather than leave money in the stock market or banks where it is steadily losing value.

[GeorgeH]

18 hours ago, martin swan said:

You could argue that if a contemporary violin turns up in T2, that's pretty much a guarantee that it isn't genuine.

One could argue that, however, I know for a fact that an excellent bench-made violin in perfect condition by a living American maker was sold in T2 a few years back. I know it was authentic because he certified it for me when I bought it from the T2 buyer a few years later. The hammer price was about 20% of what dealers were asking for his violins in their stores.

I recently sold a bow in T2 that the living maker confirmed was his very early work. Tarisio agreed that it was authentic, but did not want to sell it in the fine auction because it was not the highest quality example of his work. It sold near the high estimate.

So there are many paths that authentic instruments can take to the T2.