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Plate tuning


Crimson0087
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2 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

2.  You mean on MN ????

Anywhere. Otherwise this act is getting boring.

Do you want to be helpful to the community or do you just want to smugly tell people they're wrong?

“I gave some thought to this and arrived at the conclusion”…but the details are secret [“private”] and supposedly too technical for us to understand neither inspires confidence, nor is it helpful.

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2 hours ago, Jedidjah de Vries said:

1. Anywhere. Otherwise this act is getting boring.

2. Do you want to be helpful to the community or do you just want to smugly tell people they're wrong?

3. “I gave some thought to this and arrived at the conclusion”…but the details are secret [“private”] and supposedly too technical for us to understand neither inspires confidence, nor is it helpful.

1. 70 posts in 10 years and you are complaining of boredom ???:lol:

2. I'm not here for the community. I am here to exchange ideas/opinions with members I enjoy to exchange ideas/opinions with.  I'm pretty limited that way and doubt I could ever match your seminal contribution here. 

3. Some details are indeed private but they aren't that important and nobody has an obligation to explain you his reasoning process which by the way, in this case is mathematically pretty technical. There was no nastiness intended. 

By the way, instead of moralizing me all you had to do was send a PM asking for an explanation. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I was the recipient of live "in the flesh" instruction from Vigdorchik, and my conclusion was that what he thought he heard was entirely imagined.

 

15 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

Rarely is there a man that will Think and Pray and Sweat , till it turns to blood. There are things in this realm that deify explanation, and understanding of them is only proportional to the time well spent, in the path of their pursuit.

A quick glance in the direction of the image, is not to be the whole truth. I try not to deceive my self with knowledge hastily attained.

Often if things aren't simple and readily understandable, it is easy to label it with some foolish name,, labeling it a fool.

 

I must confess that during my instruction, I did not to participate in the consumption of the magic mushrooms, and that I also did not recite the special incantations flawlessly. ;)

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16 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

How much can you tell about a car's engine by listening to the exhaust ?    Same "system". 

Quite a lot, I think. You'll hear if it has a compressor, turbo, or not. Its number of pistons, if its a car or motorbike, if its a german or american car, diesel or petrol. If it is a high revolve engine (F1, or some japanese motorbikes) a Harlely or not, Italian two cylinder high torque motorbike. They are designed to sound different and its a part of the concept, especially for high perfomanace cars.
This is taught in universities and some get their bread and butter from working on this. There is a bit of similarity between brass instrument sound generation and some car exhaust systems. An extreme example is japanese pipe cars with their "brazzy" sharp sounds, a "street made" thing.
I think we rely quite a bit on acoustical clues from the car while driving. In particular in races. You'd loose a lot of information not being able to hear the engine, especially if driving a manual transmission car. Listening to high volume music makes you a less good driver.  

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17 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

I believe I could propose something useful for makers to investigate. 

13 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Oh, pleeeze do so.

7 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

You mean on MN ????

4 hours ago, Jedidjah de Vries said:

Anywhere. Otherwise this act is getting boring.

43 minutes ago, Carl Stross said:

...send a PM asking for an explanation. 

OK Carl, please PM me an explanation of what you think would be a useful investigation for makers, and let's stop this silly dance.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Carl Stross said:

I'd say one needs a bit more information to figure those things out reliably.

 

No, not me. But I follow american muscle cars on facebook and sometimes seek info on other types too. Not so much in real, but on the net, youtube or the like. Good repairmen rely heavily on their ears, even in direct contact with the engine through a large screwdriver some or smething similar. many will also listen to the engine above it for clues on the "health" of the valves. 

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2 minutes ago, Anders Buen said:

No, not me. But I follow american muscle cars on facebook and sometimes seek info on other types too. Not so much in real, but on the net, youtube or the like. Good repairmen rely heavily on their ears, even in direct contact with the engine through a large screwdriver some or smething similar. many will also listen to the engine above it for clues on the "health" of the valves. 

That is all very true. I think I can hear valve lifters and keepers rattling or a dubious bearing, a piston slap etc. The usual. But from the other end of the car, ear next to the exhaust, I can't tell much. Maybe I can tell if it's an odd or even crank but that's about it.

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2 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

1. 70 posts in 10 years and you are complaining of boredom ???:lol:

2. I'm not here for the community. I am here to exchange ideas/opinions with members I enjoy to exchange ideas/opinions with.  I'm pretty limited that way and doubt I could ever match your seminal contribution here. 

3. Some details are indeed private but they aren't that important and nobody has an obligation to explain you his reasoning process which by the way, in this case is mathematically pretty technical. There was no nastiness intended. 

By the way, instead of moralizing me all you had to do was send a PM asking for an explanation. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jedidjah de Vries said:

Anywhere. Otherwise this act is getting boring.

Do you want to be helpful to the community or do you just want to smugly tell people they're wrong?

“I gave some thought to this and arrived at the conclusion”…but the details are secret [“private”] and supposedly too technical for us to understand neither inspires confidence, nor is it helpful.

Pleased to “meet”  you ! I’ll take 70 well placed and considered posts by an actual violin maker  over 20,000 post centered around some ankle biters misplaced sense of personal value any day. 

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I was just looking at Carl's post history. I can think of quite a few people who are more irrelevant than he is, and they're remarkably persistent about it regarding noise v signal, and THAT is genuinely boring. If we are naming and shaming let's start a list. 

Wait, they do serve a value: when they finally show up it's certain that a thread has jumped the shark.

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15 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I was just looking at Carl's post history. I can think of quite a few people who are more irrelevant than he is, and they're remarkably persistent about it regarding noise v signal, and THAT is genuinely boring. If we are naming and shaming let's start a list. 

Wait, they do serve a value: when they finally show up it's certain that a thread has jumped the shark.

Of the over 8000 posts made by Carl  any idea what percentage are actually contain working content? Have you ever actually learned anything from Carl? … anything? … don’t want to get into naming and shaming here for sure , and Granted a lot of folks don’t actually share things like specific varnish recipes wood quality ect and the like and post a lot , David B being a prime example, however due to wide , or narrow , range of direct experience such as actually making and winning…. Judging … having a wait list … I’ll gladly listen to a series of very pointed questions concerning subjects such as plate tuning over the seemingly constant objections distractions and dismissal of some one with virtually no real life experience in the field of violin making… the focus of this forum . 

 

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41 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I was just looking at Carl's post history. I can think of quite a few people who are more irrelevant than he is, and they're remarkably persistent about it regarding noise v signal, and THAT is genuinely boring. If we are naming and shaming let's start a list. 

Wait, they do serve a value: when they finally show up it's certain that a thread has jumped the shark.

I know who all of those people are, but I'm not telling, any more than you have revealed your scrupulously un-defined  historic Italian archings, with the implication that no one but you has figured it out. :P

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1 hour ago, James M. Jones said:

Of the over 8000 posts made by Carl  any idea what percentage are actually contain working content? Have you ever actually learned anything from Carl? … anything? … 

 

Yes, I have. Because I listen to what he says, rather than argue with him over the theory of his theoretical model of car exhaust analysis.* He likes to poke and prod. His problem is that he's not a member of the in club.

*(nothing in the further discussion added to his original point, which I understood fine.)

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1 hour ago, James M. Jones said:

Of the over 8000 posts made by Carl  any idea what percentage are actually contain working content? Have you ever actually learned anything from Carl? … anything? … don’t want to get into naming and shaming here for sure , and Granted a lot of folks don’t actually share things like specific varnish recipes wood quality ect and the like and post a lot , David B being a prime example, however due to wide , or narrow , range of direct experience such as actually making and winning…. Judging … having a wait list … I’ll gladly listen to a series of very pointed questions concerning subjects such as plate tuning over the seemingly constant objections distractions and dismissal of some one with virtually no real life experience in the field of violin making… the focus of this forum . 

 

 Go for it. Don't mind me. :lol:

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21 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Do all drums sound the same?

 

Why do you think that an interest in frequency response is unhealthy, and why do you equate it with "plate tuning", since that moniker is most typically associated with the lower modes of free plates, not a completed violin?

 

No, of course not David, just like when I turn over various violins and start using them as bongo's, tapping the back, they all sound different, but we're not supposed to play them like bongos , are we? or did I miss the memo that day? ....furthermore, does playing a violin back like bongos tell us anything about the quality of tone that it will produce when played as intended with a bow?....again I've yet to find any correlation that is worth the time of incorporating "tapping" things, much more concerned with "other things" that do seem to matter, like material characteristics, weight and dimensions, but hey man...maybe we could tune in and drop out and form a new society where we have daily drum circles using violins as bongos , we could all snap our fingers and do spoken word recitals and say things like "groovy" :rolleyes::lol:

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3 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

Yes, I have. Because I listen to what he says, rather than argue with him over the theory of his theoretical model of car exhaust analysis. He likes to poke and prod. His problem is that he's not a member of the in club.

That's not a "problem"... :lol:

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52 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

No, of course not David, just like when I turn over various violins and start using them as bongo's, tapping the back, they all sound different, but we're not supposed to play them like bongos , are we? or did I miss the memo that day? ....furthermore, does playing a violin back like bongos tell us anything about the quality of tone that it will produce when played as intended with a bow?.

 Maybe. Many years ago, we invited a bunch of people to present at Oberlin, all with multiple VSA tone awards. Almost all of them incorporated some kind of tapping and listening into their making strategy. This isn't to say that I'm sold on it. Only that the evidence suggests that it should not be summarily pooh-poohed.

 

52 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

but hey man...maybe we could tune in and drop out and form a new society where we have daily drum circles using violins as bongos , we could all snap our fingers and do spoken word recitals and say things like "groovy" 

Sorry, man, my first visit to Haight-Ashbury (maybe around 1970?) was shortly after all the "groovy" stuff had already gone away, replaced by people in suits n stuff. :o

But back home in Seattle (which was several years behind San Francisco in hippedness), Owsley was still a famous name. ;)

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It might help to define what "plate tuning" is.   It is usually assciated with thinning the  top and back  plates and is used:

1.   to hit various mode (usually 1,2,&5) frequency targets.

2.  to hit a plate stiffness target S from mode frequency F and mass measurements M.  S=MF^2

3.  to hit a plate impedance target Z from F and M.  Z=MF

4. to give something to argue about if above 1,2,3 is helpful is helpful or not.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

I know who all of those people are, but I'm not telling, any more than you have revealed your scrupulously un-defined  historic Italian archings, with the implication that no one but you has figured it out. :P

I know that this will be a shock to you, but there is a world outside of Maestronet and Oberlin, and I have been quite free with this information in the appropriate contexts, as I have always have been with regard to sharing what I know.

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12 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I know that this will be a shock to you, but there is a world outside of Maestronet and Oberlin, and I have been quite free with this information in the appropriate contexts, as I have always have been with regard to sharing what I know.

Dang, you've gobsmacked me once again! :lol:

I will readily acknowledge your experience with some contemporary makers in Chicago, if you will acknowledge my experience with contemporary makers all over the world, and separately, that the Oberlin Violin Making Workshop routinely has makers from all over the world, with many different backgrounds and training.

Deal? ;)

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