Titebond Glue

[Michael_Molnar]

Fascinating how this old red herring about Titebond keeps resurfacing. Perhaps, people don’t do a search on a topic, but rush to start a new one thinking that they found something new. 

Then, there is the piling on by the MN community to rebury this corpse.

Just my personal observation about something I find interesting. Nothing judgmental meant.

 

 

[David Beard]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:21 AM, John Alexander said:

I was watching this video on YouTube of the repair to a massively damaged violin.  The luthier uses Titebond glue and insists that it is better than warm hide glue.  I have not seen or heard this before.  Is this an acceptable product to use?  I am just curious.

Not.

[John Alexander]

7 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Fascinating how this old red herring about Titebond keeps resurfacing. Perhaps, people don’t do a search on a topic, but rush to start a new one thinking that they found something new. 

Then, there is the piling on by the MN community to rebury this corpse.

Just my personal observation about something I find interesting. Nothing judgmental meant.

 

 

Sometimes it’s entertaining to start a new dialogue and invite new members to participate or give existing members something new to say on an old topic.  I wasn’t trying to open old wounds.

[Davide Sora]

[chiaroscuro_violins]

/

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Just now, chiaroscuro_violins said:

What is it for then?

Gluing popsicle sticks

[uncle duke]

I wonder what replies you guys could possibly have in another four years or so about my work that was done with Titebond close to six years ago?  Someone said wait at least ten years for back plate work to do it's possible movement so that is what the wait is about.

[Bill Yacey]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:52 AM, Wood Butcher said:

Did the “luthier” have any recognised qualifications, or are they self taught and clueless?

Perhaps self-taught and glueless.

[Bill Yacey]

It's sort of like asking over and over again "Can I live in an atmosphere without oxygen?"

No matter how many times one poses the same question, the answer still remains the same.

[David Burgess]

17 hours ago, uncle duke said:

I wonder what replies you guys could possibly have in another four years or so about my work that was done with Titebond close to six years ago?  Someone said wait at least ten years for back plate work to do it's possible movement so that is what the wait is about.

Some of us have been in this business a lot longer than ten years.

[MikeC]

I will not recommend titebond but will share my experience with it.  In 1985 I built my first VVSO  (vaguely violin shaped object).  I knew hide glue was supposed to be used but didn't know how to use it so I used white wood glue.  There was no internet, no maestronet and no instructions.     That VSO spent most of it's existence in a storage shed in the back yard unstrung not under string tension and exposed to extremes of temperature and humidity changes.   Eventually the neck spontaneously fell off.  But all these decades later the center joints are still holding strong and what remains of the plates that I haven't cut up to examine how bad my workmanship was have remained firmly glued to the ribs.  Not saying it's a glue that should be used but it held up pretty well but it wasn't under load bearing conditions.   

[Davide Sora]

Just now, MikeC said:

 it held up pretty well but it wasn't under load bearing conditions.   

Titebond is perfectly suited for this (no constant load).

[HoGo]

20 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I think they added this mostly to avoid lawsuits when someone uses it to glue his roof members with this glue and it falls on him. It will hold tables and chairs perfectly together.

But from my experience with guitars it holds quite well unless the instrument is loaded with heavy strings and/or exposed to higher temperatures or humidity. Over very long period of time the seams do show some creep but not falling apart. Of course this is on very well prepared joints of high quality instruments. Typical example is when someone puts steel strings on his classical guitar, it is almost guaranteed to pull the bridge after some time as it is not designed for this (unlike pin bridge on steel string guitars). Hide glued classicals seem to hold well with light gauge steel strings (I've done a number of bridge regluings on classicals)

I've handled one (boutique) mandolin that had  problem of fingerboard bullging up /creeping at neck joint and even after warranty repair (fingerboard removed and reglued) by the builder the situation repeated again after few months. I judgeg the problem was in imperfect neck joint that almost imperceptibly moved and the fingerboard joint took the stress. Was this neck and fingerboard glued with hot hide glue it would probably hold well.

[Barry J. Griffiths]

Let’s look on the bright side: at least he’s not an eye surgeon.

[Bruce Carlson]

From personal experience.

An unnamed and well-known Cremonese violin maker for a period used Titebond for the back and top joints on his violins, violas and cellos. In time these joints showed signs of creep, the treble side sustaining the soundpost load would protrude above the bass side. This was usually more visible on the back joint.

Because of the aliphatic resin content in Titebond it is superior to standard PVA white glue such as Elmer's Glue All or Vinavil but in long term load conditions it can still creep. You can see for yourself if you let a drop of each dry on a piece of plastic. When you peel them off the Titebond will flex some and then crack whereas the PVA 'white glue' usually does not crack and remains of a rubber-like consistency.

Davide Sora is right, and it's written right on the container. Good quality hide glue is far superior for making.

[jezzupe]

Not that I use it for much of anything, but, I guess the thing that always gets me is when I entered "guitarlandia" I observed many "high end" makers using not just "yellow glue" but white elmers as the "standard" for a large portion of the glue up of their guitars, now many of them use hide glue, but white glue seems to be "standard" in the construction of guitars and they certainly are under load.

I learned the hard way related to finger board to neck glue up, being convinced the hide glue was always best, but in that case it is not, truss rods put too much force in just the kind of way to fracture the hide glue bond, so I find regular titebond in that case works best and does not fail.

So again a guitar has quite a bit of consistent force applied and many of them are made with white/yellow glues and we don't see them necessarily falling apart. I don't think the glue knows it's gluing up a violin so it should fail when a guitar won't. I still use hide glue for the majority of glue up for both bowed instruments and guitars. But all laws of physics applied equally I would think we'd see many more "10 year" guitars if those types of glues were so prone to failure. 

[HoGo]

Luckily guitars don't have soundposts to put tremendous strain pretty close to centerjoint that has rather small area. Guitar backs and tops usually have those substantial crossgrain centerstrips all along the centerseams that help them hold well.

I wonder how the Titebond II or III holds against creep as some violin makers use that for centerjoints (most notably Roger Hargrave in his "bass making" book)

[jezzupe]

6 minutes ago, HoGo said:

Luckily guitars don't have soundposts to put tremendous strain pretty close to centerjoint that has rather small area. Guitar backs and tops usually have those substantial crossgrain centerstrips all along the centerseams that help them hold well.

I wonder how the Titebond II or III holds against creep as some violin makers use that for centerjoints (most notably Roger Hargrave in his "bass making" book)

Bruce Sexauer , who's a pretty up there kinda maker explained to me that those aren't any good because they are too resistant to water if repair is needed, I kinda buy that logic, most of my guitar necks are multi board laminates and I use yellow glues in those cases too.  And ya I suppose the post does put something into the equation

[HoGo]

Guitars are more substantially made overall, the kerfed linings along the ribs are much wider - perhaps twice the gluing surface of cello. The body blocks have grain typically parallel with sides making the joint with top much stronger than endgrain joint on violin family (though in this area Titebond is pretty strong). The top and back centerseams are supported by the substantial crossgrain strip and also the bracing going across the center. Neck joints are typically large dovetails which, when properly fitted, will hold even without glue.

I personally don't see any problem in gluing fingerboard on guitar with trussrod with HHG. I've done it on all my mandolins with no reported problems. Also there are several different systems of trussrods that put different forces into work...

edit: I forgot to mention pin style guitar bridge where strings pull against the bridge plate glued to the  inside of the top (which again strengthens the scenterseam) and the only force trying to pull the bridge from top is the leverage of strings that bulges the top slightly.

[HoGo]

9 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

those aren't any good because they are too resistant to water if repair is needed,

That's exactly the reason why Roger used it. His POP ground is applied quite wet and can open HHG joints/seams.

Repairability of Titebond I has been questioned many times though I've never seen any convincing study, mostly just repeated hearsay of how it won't stick to old Titebond at all.

[JacksonMaberry]

There is a German glue called "Ponal Wasserfest", which has been mentioned on these forums before. I do not know the composition, but it appears to be after the same kind of user as Titebond III as a waterproof wood glue. 

Unlike Titebond III, it is white when wet and clear when dried. 

I made a fixture with it and later wanted to change the design. While hot water did not loosen the joint, full strength distilled vinegar did over time with a small amount of effort. With a vinegar soaked cloth, I was able to remove all residue of the glue, though presumably some remained in the wood. It glued back together fine afterwards. 

I have heard of it's use in center joints among some European trained makers of note, but I can't comment on it from a first hand perspective. 

[David Beard]

From the list, it looks like super glue is under used in violin making.

And it seems hide glue is stinky and inconvenient.

[bkwood]

22 hours ago, HoGo said:

Repairability of Titebond I has been questioned many times though I've never seen any convincing study, mostly just repeated hearsay of how it won't stick to old Titebond at all.

That's the most convincing argument against Titebond and in favor of hide glue. Even if you can get some bond regluing Titebond it won't be strong and it will buildup the glueline.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:25 PM, David Beard said:

From the list, it looks like super glue is under used in violin making.

And it seems hide glue is stinky and inconvenient.

In my opinion, besides the undisturbed glue's behavior in new building, the traditions and methods used in restoration (and re-restoration) need to be considered.. and the reversibility of those methods.  For example: I would expect anyone working on old fiddles has encountered crack fill of straight orange shellac (used by the Hill shop and others in the past).  Relatively fast drying, I'm sure it looked great at the time, probably very convenient... and makes for a very long and frustrating day for future restorers if it needs removal. 

Stinky? Probably depends on the grade and source.  Most of the high clarity glues I use do not have much of a smell. Easy to make, IMHO. Measure it, soak it, heat it. Bond strength easily modified. Shorter "working time" than most bottle glues (so it requires practical application of the four letter word that starts with p and ends with n), better joint and easily reversible.

While this general subject receives quite a bit of attention when it comes up on the board, I think it's been discussed plenty often enough to allow members here to draw "educated" opinions for themselves. There is certainly a trend in the opinions presented by those who have built/maintained good reputations and successful livelihoods in the trade. This last paragraph is not in direct response to Mr. Beard's post... just a general comment.

[David Beard]

To be clear, I was being sarcastic.   

I'm not against exploring expansions of the glue pallet. But, I believe there are great good reasons for hide glue to continue its near complete domination in violin workshops.