How to tie knot for thicker gut playing strings

[Andro]

Being new to gut strung baroque instruments and a total klutz at tying knots, I am seeking instructions on how to tie the knot for A and D strings for the tailpiece. The E string I just use a quick double hitch which seems to be popular with players, and the all the G gut strings I have come with the knot already done (thank goodness). It's the ones in the middle supplied as lengths with no knots that have me in diffculty. The knots I see seem to be bowlines, but I only rarely see the string passed through the loop as well, and the bowline knot seems to only serve as a stopper for the small tailpiece hole (I am only referring to baroque violins in this post). So I am confused and inexperienced, and wondering why you need a bowline anyway, apart from the fact that it does not slip. Any pointers/videos/diagrams and so on most appreciated!

Aquila has a video of how to tie a bowline, but it's about sailing knots, with thick flexible rope, and I just cant get it on thick gut, which is very stiff.

 

 

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I do a surgeons knot and add a couple drops of super glue to the knot

[Brad Dorsey]

A bowline (pronounced bo-lin) is one type of knot that forms a loop.  Since all you need is a stopper, I see no need for a bowline.

I have never set up a baroque instrument before, but I now have a customer's antique baroque viola in my workshop that I need to set up.  I got real gut strings from my brother-in-law who, as Boulder Early Music Shop, deals in modern reproductions of baroque instruments.  I haven't put the strings on yet, but he tells me that a simple overhand knot is all that is needed at the tailpiece.  I asked if softening the gut in water before tying the knot might make it easier, but he said it's not necessary.  I think the strings have enough additional length to allow for some experimentation and cutting-off of any failures.

[Brad Dorsey]

49 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I do a surgeons knot...

I thought a surgeons' knot is for tying two cordage ends to each other, similar to a square (aka reef) knot.

[baroquecello]

As gut strings are fairly fragile, they can be susceptible to breaking when making sharp curves. By looping the end of the string through the knot (a few times even), the knot becomes larger and therefore the "kinks" in the string less acute. This reduces the chance of breakage.

[Deo Lawson]

I do a basic slip knot. It forms a big enough knot that it won't slip out of most tailpieces (definitely not baroque style ones). I have never had a string come untied in all my days using gut.

To soften up the gut you can curl it around a hard edge, like the spine of a knife. Only do this to the part you're tying, obviously.

[nathan slobodkin]

The standard knot used as a "stop" on logging and rigging ropes is a figure eight knot. I have little experience with gut strings but that is the knot I would try first. Easy to tie and very secure.

[jandepora]

Maybe this could help; The E 903(3) tailpiece gut in the Cite de la Musique in Paris, France

https://www.gamutmusic.com/tying-tail-gut/putting-tailgut-on-a-historical-tailpiece-the-stradivari-sti/6a8e5421-cf8a-4db1-87a5-74fbac363d0d-E 903

 

 

 

 

 

[J.DiLisio]

I just use the same knot for all of them.  It helps to singe the ends with a lighter. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

5 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I thought a surgeons' knot is for tying two cordage ends to each other, similar to a square (aka reef) knot.

a surgeon's knot is an overhand knot turned over one more time, I believe, that's what I mean, and I'm talking about the tailgut, not the strings, isn't that the topic?

[Davide Sora]

51 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

a surgeon's knot is an overhand knot turned over one more time, I believe, that's what I mean, and I'm talking about the tailgut, not the strings, isn't that the topic?

You mean this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMcvMp4QXAs

 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I don't think the normal knot tying rules apply to gut. A flame carefully applied to the end of gut will swell it and stop a knot running.

[Mark Norfleet]

 

I personally don't usually want a loop in front of the TP that the string passes through and just use some crude know of unknown name to keep the string from passing through the hole in the TP.  Usually the instrument will sound better this way.  Sometimes I'll tie the end of the string around a small piece of toothpick or other small piece of wood if the knots have been pulling through.

[Andro]

Some misunderstanding here, maybe I was not clear. I am referring to the knots in the playing strings, not the tailpiece gut. I suppose my thread title was badly worded. I have edited the title to be more clear.

 

 

[Andro]

@J.DiLisio that's exactly what I am after. So what type of knots are they? Are they the bowline type? And any info on how to learn how to make them?

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

4 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

You mean this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMcvMp4QXAs

 

no nothing like that, its just an overhand knot with one more twist

[J.DiLisio]

[bkwood]

Figure 8?

[jandepora]

Antoine Pesne (1683-1757) Portrait d'un violoniste

[Andro]

Thanks @jandepora for the remarkable iconographic reference. While it is generally dangerous to rely on paintings, this instance has acutely finely observed detail. These are bowline knots, and precisely identical to what the Aquila website shows in their video for fitting gut strings to a viola da gamba.

I wonder what the G and D strings here have. :-)

 

 

[Andro]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:01 AM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I do a surgeons knot and add a couple drops of super glue to the knot

Are you referring to the Surgeons End Loop? What I know as a Surgeons Knot is to tie two lengths together. This one:

https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/surgeons-end-loop

[Strad O Various Jr.]

3 hours ago, Andro said:

Are you referring to the Surgeons End Loop? What I know as a Surgeons Knot is to tie two lengths together. This one:

https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/surgeons-end-loop

no not even close, and overhand knot with an extra twist

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I guess they're calling it a double overhand knot except that the loop is going up through the tailpiece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_overhand_knot

This is what they are calling a surgeon's knot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon's_knot

[baroquecello]

@jandepora Thank you for this fantastically detailed potrait! very interesting! and finally a painter that sort of got the position of the bridge feet correct.

[JacksonMaberry]

On 1/8/2022 at 8:16 AM, nathan slobodkin said:

The standard knot used as a "stop" on logging and rigging ropes is a figure eight knot. I have little experience with gut strings but that is the knot I would try first. Easy to tie and very secure.

+1 for the figure eight knot. It's very unlikely to jam and easy to tie.