Experts discuss setup / adjustments at Oberlin

[Jeffrey Holmes]

1 hour ago, Michael Darnton said:

FWIW, in the vein of what Jeffrey said, Philip Perret is one of my setup heroes. 

Yup. Philip does a wonderful setup.  I've been caring for a fiddle (quite a nice one) for a mutual client (who lives closer to me and doesn't get to NY as much as he used to) for many years.  He's pretty sensitive to small changes in string height and has Perret summer and winter bridges... which I am quite careful to maintain. Doubt I could do better.

Philip brought a collection of bridges from a variety of makers and shops to Oberlin last time he was a guest teacher there (I think most of us have boxes of them we have come across and saved 'cause we noticed something attractive or interesting about them).  While the participants were measuring and photographing them with their smart phones, he said something like (I'm paraphrasing from memory, so please feel free to correct me Philip) "The problem is that, really, the best bridge cut for the instrument may still be on it. These may not have worked as well".

Conversely, about three weeks ago, I had an experience that illustrated the the danger of being too quick to make changes...  A player wanted to see me as they had been having a heck of a time with the voice, response and general playability of the fiddle (a very nice Lupot) and asked me what I could do to help... I asked what had been changed and when the difficulty started. She mentioned  a couple bridge changes, an alteration of the fingerboard (minor), but really little else.  We discovered a very well cut Francais bridge in her case that was original to the fiddle when she purchased it from that shop many decades ago. Perfect shape, string height was fine. I suggested we put it on. Bingo. I asked her to play it for a while and see if the romance continued. If so, I suggested we return the board surface to a more normal shape later on. She emailed last week and said I was brilliant.  Flattering, but in reality I was simply not so egotistical that I was able to recognize something that was really nicely made and appropriate when I saw it and had no desire to replace it with something bearing my own brand stamp.  We'll do her board next month. Hope I maintain my status.  

[Andreas Preuss]

IMO sound adjustments with the parameters of strings, bridge and sound post position are mostly about making the player feel comfortable with the sound and only to a lesser degree about changing the sound itself. (audible in the audience)

‘Sound adjustment’ might be the wrong word, ‘response adjustment’ might be a better term. And this is often more important to professional players than sound itself. 

In this sense an old bridge often works better than a new bridge. I would speculate that this might have to do with the fact that all bridges stretch in over time because all bridges lower over time on the e string and get higher on the G string due to the unbalanced string load. 
 

I was once participating as the technical assistant in a violin shoot-out where a prominent violinist had to choose between two violins. When he indicated that he liked our instrument better the dealer we were competing with complimented me on the fantastic setup. I only shrugged my shoulders saying: ‘Yeah, better not to touch an old setup by Wurlitzer.’ Next day the competing dealer had a new setup made for his/her instrument. Didn’t help. (I actually thought it got worse…)

[Jeffrey Holmes]

38 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

a) IMO sound adjustments with the parameters of strings, bridge and sound post position are mostly about making the player feel comfortable with the sound and only to a lesser degree about changing the sound itself. (audible in the audience)

b) In this sense an old bridge often works better than a new bridge. I would speculate that this might have to do with the fact that all bridges stretch in over time because all bridges lower over time on the e string and get higher on the G string due to the unbalanced string load. 

a) I've had more than one concert player express similar sentiments. Usually in the context of "If it feels right to me I can make it sound the way I want it to".

b) True, but in many cases I find the older bridges were simply made better (thicknesses/tolerances/concept/etc) than what they were replaced by... and sometimes the replacement bridges have been on the fiddle as long, or longer, than the older/original was... and in that case the older ones may show less movement than the replacement. It's a case by case thing.

[J.dV]

6 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

-interesting that all three judge setups based on their own playing. This I disagree with!

Maybe I need to rewatch it but that was not my takeaway. I understood SZ specifically that he tried to understand the issue (as described by the player) through his own playing but not that he was judging or evaluating through his own playing.

[Peter K-G]

22 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

"Top makers", polite discussions for tentative consensus, leading to zero sum game.

If everyone agrees all the time, not much takeaways.

Although interesting to follow.

 

11 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

Some idiot commented 'top makers'....yes these are TOP MAKERS...talking on Zoom..not the natural environment of the maker....I guess some of them might have wished to say more, edit or say less....But here it is...one of the best things to have landed on Maestronet since .........The normal question of how to glue two bits of wood together......

At least I recognized they are 'top makers'. I also identified they used Zoom. If you are 'top' in other fields you would use Teams 

BTW, what is the best way to glue two pieces of different type of wood together, I have learnd how, with two pieces of the same wood...

[scordatura]

11 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

-interesting that AR doesn't modify his bridges. Want to know more about how this works and wondering if he overstated for effect?

-interesting that all three judge setups based on their own playing. This I disagree with!

If you remember what AR said about bridges, he stated that "mass is more important than tuning". I have met Andrew before and have noticed that he likes to make a general statement based on his experience. For instance he said that thickness (thinning) only goes so. After that arching takes over.

Sticking with Andrew and playing, I had the experience of him coming to my home with 4 or 5 of his instruments. We were lucky that he had some in his shop for a tune up and some that were just finished. He was very interested in how I play and how he could taylor an instrument to my playing style. He also played my violins. While not a professional player, he plays well enough to get an idea of how they respond and their general characteristics. I think what they were all saying was that the instruments are what they are and they strive to get the most out of them by playing them themselves and then having the player do their thing and adjust from there. I think that in Andrew's case he was as you are saying, overstating for effect.

For what it is worth, I think Andrew Ryan's instruments are as good as any made today in terms of sound and construction. Particularly in terms of antiquing.

[scordatura]

Was it just me or was the angle of the bass bar in between the plane of the arching and the gluing surface of the top interesting? I was taught (Nebel, et. al.) to set the bar perpendicular to the gluing surface. All three agreed on this approach.

Is there any benefit acoustically? I think Sam Z said it was more aesthetically pleasing.  Transcript is below. Sam Z is speaking.

so anyway i mean i think what joseph

said is there is a lot to it which is

just it's unpleasing just to clamp

something

like that you feel like it's going to

slide downhill you want us you sort of

want to like address it

though and that's not a bad principle in

our work that they should not be

unpleasing but i do like everybody else

do it somewhere in between

[Michael Darnton]

At B&F I was taught to measure bar lean in 70 mm from the end, which is about the quarter point, and measure perpendicularity on the inside with a small (13 mm wide) rule. I think the idea was to split the difference between square to the arch at the ends and square in the middle. Which is Sam's idea of "somewhere in between", right?

The usual for everyone, I think, would be to clamp the center first, and that's on a slope no matter what you do, so it can slide downhill on slippery glue there and sometimes does. Lots of people use temporary studs to keep that from happening. I don't like that kind of marks inside, so I just curse a lot and keep trying.

Then, if you think about it, in theory as the arch moves upwards towards the ends the ends of the bar will drift out of straight inwards or out depending on the relative lean of the bar, but I've never noticed that to any meaningful extent. From a lot of testing I don't personally believe that little things like this with the bar matter much, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

I was certainly brought up in the "no change in cause fails to have an effect" school, but I would add "until sufficient real world testing proves otherwise." Unlike their statement at the end of the video, I and my shop do a LOT of testing that we don't get paid for and redo things until we get a good idea of the effects of what we are doing, and have had this as a shop policy for some years at the insistence of my partners and I who have never really considered shop costs when it comes to making something work just right. With their non-mechanical artist attitudes they don't accept that every instrument can't eventually be perfect. . . a frustrating and at the same time rewarding attitude to have to deal with at times when someone who really doesn't know anything about violin mechanics is convinced that the bar is the problem and needs to see six different bars done over the course of several months to have it proven that no, the bar is not the problem. For instance.  [This is not the same as saying that nothing about the bar ever has an effect!]

[uncle duke]

I just used headphones to listen without being able to see who was who - better listening concentration that way early in the morning.

I had a feeling Mr. Z. and Mr. Ryan were hoping to discuss violin only but cello talk can be good too.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

3 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

Then, if you think about it, in theory as the arch moves upwards towards the ends the ends of the bar will drift out of straight inwards or out depending on the relative lean of the bar, but I've never noticed that to any meaningful extent. From a lot of testing I don't personally believe that little things like this with the bar matter much, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the ends not being exactly in line with the center, correct? I do use studs, as I just find my day goes a lot better with them, but I've actually had the occasion to purposefully urge the ends away from the center ever-so-slightly a couple of times (an Amati with a very narrow ff hole set comes to mind; relieving the side of the bar at the hole wasn't quite enough). The resulting bar worked very well, so I would say I'm also in the minority camp if there is one.

[Don Noon]

4 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

The usual for everyone, I think, would be to clamp the center first, and that's on a slope no matter what you do, so it can slide downhill on slippery glue there and sometimes does. Lots of people use temporary studs to keep that from happening. I don't like that kind of marks inside, so I just curse a lot and keep trying.

From a lot of testing I don't personally believe that little things like this with the bar matter much, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

I don't like studs or sliding bass bars either, but rather than curse, I made a fixture with adjustable arms to locate the bridge laterally. 

I am also in the minority (if that's actually the case) in that my tests also didn't show much change with modest changes in the bass bar.  Very large changes in mass and/or stiffness, yes.

[Don Noon]

4 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

in theory as the arch moves upwards towards the ends the ends of the bar will drift out of straight inwards or out depending on the relative lean of the bar, but I've never noticed that to any meaningful extent. From a lot of testing I don't personally believe that little things like this with the bar matter much, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

1 hour ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the ends not being exactly in line with the center, correct? I do use studs, as I just find my day goes a lot better with them, but I've actually had the occasion to purposefully urge the ends away from the center ever-so-slightly a couple of times 

The "theory" is actually established, proven geometry... tilt the bar vertically to be more perpendicular to the top, and (if the bar is initially straight), when you cut the curve to match the top, the ends of the bar will wind up closer to the center joint.  It's not that hard to calculate, and it's not that much for a few degrees of tilt... about a mm or less.

If I wanted a bar like Jeffrey's that's closer to the centerline at the middle and splayed outward at the end, I'd use bar stock that started out with curved grain.  I keep some of that in my bar box just in case.

 

[David Burgess]

17 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

-interesting that all three judge setups based on their own playing. This I disagree with!

I don't, necessarily. If an adjuster has become skilled in the way a violin feels to the player, being able to feel it for themself can be a huge asset.

I mostly adjust violins for the feel, and my opinion is that when a violin feels the best, it is almost always at it's maximum potential sound-wise.

About 20 years ago, I spent a couple of days adjusting instruments in San Francisco. The owners were required to wait outside. The offer was that if they weren't satisfied, there would be no charge. No one even attempted to decline payment

[jacobsaunders]

6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

About 20 years ago, I spent a couple of days adjusting instruments in San Francisco. The owners were required to wait outside. The offer was that if they weren't satisfied, there would be no charge. No one even attempted to decline payment

Did you have all of your motorbike freinds hanging around outside too?

[David Burgess]

44 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Did you have all of your motorbike freinds hanging around outside too?

No. The mission was dual-purpose. Recently divorced, I had been set up on a blind date with a potential wife-al replacement in San Francisco, about 2300 miles away from where I was living. Figured I'd set up some adjustments while I was there for the blind date, or set up the blind date while I was there for the adjustments.

Can't claim that the blind date woman couldn't have scared some people into submission, though.

Now aren't you sorry you asked?

[Evan Smith]

19 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

We discovered a very well cut Francais bridge in her case that was original to the fiddle,,,,

Bingo.

And to think,  it could've been in someone's precious collection, oh the shame!

[Jeffrey Holmes]

7 minutes ago, Evan Smith said:

And to think,  it could've been in someone's precious collection, oh the shame!

 

[Evan Smith]

It jumped out of your collection and back into her case you say?

[David Beard]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:35 AM, Carl Stross said:

An illuminating insight into the thinking of experts such as Robin Aitchison, Andrew Ryan and Samuel Zygmuntowicz :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NjzERkmRV8&t=5338s

 

Love this!  Thank you for sharing.