Old Italian cello indentification

[Delabo]

24 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

There are lots of old instrument listings on the cozio archive with black and white photos that probably need to be reviewed. Unless it's a known instrument with good provenance I tend to be a bit cautious of those older listings.

How easy it is to say this, but there is someone in the world who owns this cello which they purchased in 1967 believing it to be a rock solid investment.  And why would they not be justified in feeling that way? They had certificates from the worlds best experts. And now we find that the certificates can be dismissed as not being worth the paper they were written on. I feel for the current owner of this Cello and am very sorry for his loss. How would any of us feel if we were in there shoes?

[Shelbow]

5 minutes ago, Delabo said:

How easy it is to say this, but there is someone in the world who owns this cello which they purchased in 1967 believing it to be a rock solid investment.  And why would they not be justified in feeling that way? They had certificates from the worlds best experts. And now we find that the certificates can be dismissed as not being worth the paper they were written on. I feel for the current owner of this Cello and am very sorry for his loss. How would any of us feel if we were in there shoes?

I agree, and it is unfortunate but it does happen. New evidence comes to light all the time. This happens in the art world constantly. There are many items sold on T2 with old certificates from reputable sources that have now been disproved due to dendro or other information. Experts can only state their opinion based on the evidence available to them at the time. There is constant research in the field, the is always a risk that things will be re-attributed.

[David A.T.]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

So what?

72 years of mis-informations look strange & very long  to me.

I think there is a (litlle, maybe high) probabiliy that the owners post 1967 did further expertise and were so much disapointed that the certificate are not available (to avoid instrument value decrease). 

 

[jacobsaunders]

32 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

There are lots of old instrument listings on the cozio archive with black and white photos that probably need to be reviewed. Unless it's a known instrument with good provenance I tend to be a bit cautious of those older listings.

I wouldn’t necessarily pick on black and white photos. The archive is quite useable for Castello, since there are (the ones where one gets to see) 8 with the characteristic pegbox, so that one can safely sort out those pics as reference instruments, and ignore all other Klumpert, so that one has plenty to go on. Should one though wish to look up something like Mariani, one is confronted by a bunch of fiddles, that are all clearly made by completely different people, so that one scrolls down the page, thinking bollocks, bollocks, bollocks, bollocks and bollocks again, and still don’t know what a definitive Mariani looks like

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, David A.T. said:

72 years of mis-informations look strange & very long  to me.

I think there is a (litlle, maybe high) probabiliy that the owners post 1967 did further expertise and were so much disapointed that the certificate are not available (to avoid instrument value decrease). 

 

 

The interesting question is what something is (or isn’t) and not if some bloke in New York is out of pocket

[deans]

When I look at the OPs instrument my immediate impression is that the head doesnt belong to the body. Not that I have any idea what any of the parts might be.

[Flattmountain]

2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

The human population is falling steeply, heading below the level needed to sustain civilization

I would hope that we wouldn’t need pregnant scrolls to remedy that…

[martin swan]

Not really apropos of anything but it's worth making a couple of points.

Quite a lot of what's in the Cozio archive isn't "peer reviewed", and you couldn't expect it to be. It seems likely that in the case of this cello it found its way onto Cozio along with everything else in the Jacques Francais business archive. I am sure that Tarisio don't claim that the Cozio archive is any more than it is, a fantastically useful resource if you know how to use it.

In cases of mis-attribution there is always someone who takes a hit, and it's generally an innocent party who puts their faith in the seller. We don't know what the story is here, but this cello seems to be for sale with its historic certificates. I would surmise it's for sale in some under the radar fashion, partly because of the context of the photos, partly because a prospective buyer feels the need for a second opinion. All of this rings alarm bells for me. A Paolo Castello cello is a rare and valuable instrument - if it's for sale at less than $300k you would want to know why, and if  it's for sale at $300k or more you would expect some kind of presentation, at least one current certificate, a condition report and serious guarantees.

 

 

[Blank face]

23 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The interesting question is what something is (or isn’t) and not if some bloke in New York is out of pocket

I don't want to pretend I knew what it is, but these sort of open C bouts and long gently swung pegbox reminds me always of the Glatz making. We discussed it several times, for example here:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/

 

[Dr. Mark]

 

10 minutes ago, Flattmountain said:

2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

The human population is falling steeply, heading below the level needed to sustain civilization

I would hope that we wouldn’t need pregnant scrolls to remedy that…

At the risk of encouraging an off-topic bicker (and after this post I won't be a part of it), I think Bill's comment is a good example of how easy it is to push people's buttons with egregious blather, particularly when they expose a sensitivity.

[Bill Merkel]

^Anti-civilization, are ya?

[Delabo]

21 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don't want to pretend I knew what it is, but these sort of open C bouts and long gently swung pegbox reminds me always of the Glatz making. We discussed it several times, for example here:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/

 

The one in your picture looks more like "sliding" bouts rather than open bouts.

Castello bouts look almost hooked compared to yours.

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

The human population is falling steeply, heading below the level needed to sustain civilization

Nope, the human population is not falling steeply. Worldwide, it is still increasing. It is only the rate of increase in human population which is going down a bit. 

There are many historical examples of failed civilizations, due to reproducing homo-sapiens above the long-term ability of their environments to sustain them. Want me to send you a hose-clamp, or a clothes-pin?

[Rue]

Just curious...I often find B&W photos, if crisp and clear, to be preferable to colour pictures. Details are likely to be easier to see and the presence of a possibly (likely) questionable colour doesn't influence perception.

[Blank face]

17 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The one in your picture looks more like "sliding" bouts rather than open bouts.

Castello bouts look almost hooked compared to yours.

I wasn't talking about Castello but the OP cello, what might indicate a certain difference.

[BassClef]

On 12/26/2021 at 1:55 PM, martin swan said:

That's a great article ... and a fantastically well preserved Castello.

Here's Alberto outside his shop with the viola from the article (on the right) and our viola (left)

 

Violin porn epitomized.

[Bill Merkel]

8 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Nope, the human population is not falling steeply. Worldwide, it is still increasing. It is only the rate of increase in human population which is going down a bit. 

There are many historical examples of failed civilizations, due to reproducing homo-sapiens above the long-term ability of their environments to sustain them. Want me to send you a hose-clamp, or a clothes-pin?

I don't know of any civilizations that failed because of their environment's inability to sustain a larger population.  Shortages from overpopulation is old thinking, like the coming ice age   Today's problem is shortages from slowdown of innovation that leads to famine in poor countries, low birth rate in rich ones, increasing age, decreased industrial output, and other problems, ending in the collapse of civilization...

[Ratcliffiddles]

On 12/26/2021 at 1:01 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

Don’t know what it is, but we’re there any regions where makers would make a purfling inlay in the pegbox?

My closest guess would be Fussen, but I am sure Jacob will chop off my head for saying this.

It looks very much that the wood within the purfling is different to the rest, so it is likely a "repair" to hide hideous bushings, or screw holes from possible machine heads or strengthen cracks/ etc..

The wood on the front looks like a very good candidate for a dendro test, maybe not to kill it entirely.

[Bob K]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

Just curious...I often find B&W photos, if crisp and clear, to be preferable to colour pictures. Details are likely to be easier to see and the presence of a possibly (likely) questionable colour doesn't influence perception.

From the colour pictures here, the varnish on the OP cello appears to be entirely different to that on the example violas. It does make me wonder if it has been revarnished, just a different choice of finish colour or by a different maker?

[jacobsaunders]

8 minutes ago, Bob K said:

From the colour pictures here, the varnish on the OP cello appears to be entirely different to that on the example violas. 

Because the OP cello is something entirely different than a Castello. BF’s speculation that it could be something from Glatz will be worth exploring further, once the OP has provided better pictures

[Delabo]

4 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

The wood on the front looks like a very good candidate for a dendro test, maybe not to kill it entirely.

A cryptic teaser.

 

[Flattmountain]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:25 PM, Bill Merkel said:

^Anti-civilization, are ya?

This conversation has been a strange mixture of equivocation and strawman fallacies. 
 

Equivocation: there are no ties between pregnant scrolls, civilization, and wether on not you are making a valid fact based argument or an emotionally driven one, that proves whatever point you are trying to make which is continuously unclear. 
 

strawman: he was merely pointing out the pointlessness and irrelevance of of your argument. He never said he was anti civilization

17 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

I don't know of any civilizations that failed because of their environment's inability to sustain a larger population.  Shortages from overpopulation is old thinking, like the coming ice age   Today's problem is shortages from slowdown of innovation that leads to famine in poor countries, low birth rate in rich ones, increasing age, decreased industrial output, and other problems, ending in the collapse of civilization...

Rome. Famous failure. And I don’t know of any civilizations that fail by population alone. A civilization fails when a false sense of intellectualism takes over, and blue collar and self sufficient work is frowned upon. This is happening all over the world with the constant progressive push. In Ancient Rome, they couldn’t sustain themselves, because all they wanted to do was be supreme and philosophical, and let the hired mercenaries uphold their border. They relied on the surrounding countries or provinces’ taxes of food and other supplies necessary to live the luxurious and lazy life that was considered “success”. And after the conquering spree, their army was so spread thin that they were free to revolt as they wished (just another example of why state rights over federal are so important).

It is scary what the worlds idea of success has reverted back to. It’s almost primitive in it’s self. Success used to be owning in full every thing you claim, owning sufficient land to raise sufficient materials for sustaining  the life and happiness of your family, and buying the things you yourself could not provide with the money you made from a job you provided valuable assets to. 
 

fix the culture fix the economy. That goes for urban, rural, and ghetto settings. 

[Rothwein]

Success as you see it was made systemically impossible for certain people to attain. I do not subsist on largesse.

[Violadamore]

[Gazes over a thick wall of sandbags, through a tank periscope, quickly cycles popcorn bags through a ruggedized microwave oven, and arranges plastipaks of Montepulciano D'Abruzzo.]

37 minutes ago, Flattmountain said:

.............

fix the culture fix the economy.............

IMHO, MN isn't good terrain for this sort of debate.  Believe me, I know. 

The moderators own all the high ground.

[Rue]

...this batch of popcorn is especially tasty!....