Why choose one key over another?

[PhilipKT]

A major scale is a major scale.

So what guides a composer to choose one key over another?

I am at this moment having a deep chat about this question and wanted to invite other thoughts?

[jacobsaunders]

Willkür

[Rue]

Colour.

[PhilipKT]

13 minutes ago, Rue said:

Colour.

Yes, that’s what my disputant said, but what does that mean? Different parts of the cello sound different than other parts of the cello, so playing in B-flat major, for instance will have me focusing on different areas of the instrument and different strings, which will change the color, But that’s not why one chooses a particular key for a piano Sonata. So what exactly does color mean in this context?

edit: “colour” if you prefer 

Edited November 9, 2021 by PhilipKT

[Rue]

Mood. Tone. Flavour. Emotion.

Some keys are happy. Some keys are sad.

 

[jacobsaunders]

I remember, as a teenager I went to a Queen concert in Wembley. The concert was fantastic. Afterwards my brother, who had perfect pitch and who was with me, told me that they had performed everything a 3^rd. flat compared to their records. I was astonished because I would never have noticed in a month of Sundays, although he did of course This would suggest to me that the “colour” answer is pure salesmanship.

[PhilipKT]

4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I remember, as a teenager I went to a Queen concert in Wembley. The concert was fantastic. Afterwards my brother, who had perfect pitch and who was with me, told me that they had performed everything a 3^rd. flat compared to their records. I was astonished because I would never have noticed in a month of Sundays, although he did of course This would suggest to me that the “colour” answer is pure salesmanship.

As always I appreciate your stories, in particular the one you told about the chunk of Ebony that your brother swore was priceless, and which ended up with a geranium on top.

Yes, in the olden days, different  emotions were attributed to different keys and if you wanted a melancholy piece, for instance, you had to write in the appropriately melancholy key.

Much later, that was dismissed as claptrap.

As a string player it would seem to me that for a piano sonata, a key would be chosen for technical ease above all else, but I’m not sure that’s accurate.

[Rue]

11 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I remember, as a teenager I went to a Queen concert in Wembley. The concert was fantastic. Afterwards my brother, who had perfect pitch and who was with me, told me that they had performed everything a 3^rd. flat compared to their records. I was astonished because I would never have noticed in a month of Sundays, although he did of course This would suggest to me that the “colour” answer is pure salesmanship.

No. 

I don’t have perfect pitch, yet I can tell a major key from a minor key.

But I might not be able to tell a D major from an A major - depending.

If you weren't able to tell that the orchestra was playing THAT flat, it could be because you weren't expecting it, and you may have been familiar with the the piece. And of course, the noise of the milieu will affect what you are hearing.

If I play something flat or sharp, I usually don't notice either, as long as all the notes are adjusted flat or sharp. 

But I can certainly tell if one note is too flat or sharp.

[palousian]

The differences between keys are pretty insignificant, IMO, except how it feels to the player.  Db major being different than G major in that sense.  That "Some keys are happy. Some keys are sad" though is mostly projection and training. There are differences of timbre but as Jacob just pointed out, they are not profound.   Before equal temperament, there were more distinctions between keys, but now it is deliberately tuned to be exactly. the. same.

Historical/musicological perspective helps here, I think.  Traditionally, many cultures have a variety of modes (a mode is not just a list of pitches, but also distinctive phrases, songs, ornamentation, etc.).  The traditions I've studied also ascribe particular emotional content to these different modes, but I think that there is a certain amount of projection there, too.  Makam Nihavend is basically what Europeans would call the Dorian mode.  Because it sounds minor, European-trained musicians would associate sadness or other dark emotional states with it, though the Turkish musician who taught it to me described its effect as "humility before grandeur," and went on to explain that his particular Sufi tradition used to apply the emotional subtlety of makam as a kind of music therapy.  That works, too.  If you are taught that this or that piece/tonality gives you a certain feeling, you begin to associate that feeling with that sound.  Europeans had more than two modes at one time, too, but the development of harmony and chromaticism replaced that range with major and minor tonalities (granted, there is some variety in the minor mode).  The one makam that haunted me was Makam Kurdi with the third step of the scale being exactly between major and minor, a quarter tone.  At first it seemed wrong, but it grew on me, and Latif told me that the sadness in the history of the Kurdish people is embedded in that sound.  Maybe.  But that was the other interesting thing about makams, maqams, ragas, etc.--that many of them are associated with places and ethnic groups.  Nihavend is a region in Iran, for example.

That aspect of melody/tonality has been mostly eradicated from European music, but gained advantages in architecture and harmony as a result, but compared to these shadings--yeah, D major and Bb major sound pretty much the same.

 

[GoPractice]

The "reference," if there is a "baseline" on this subject might be the tempered keyboard? I want to state it as a question, though the P&F of JS Bach in two books might establish what might be the norm. Apologies for the "quotes" but there is different terminology or syntax when visiting these subjects.

Most other instruments can compensate for "crushed" or reduced perfect 5ths. With a FF brass chord played with very open 5ths, I can not help but get excited. It often signals finality, the end, a point of arrival... but this also requires a very knowing group of performers.

French horn players are constantly adjusting for pitches, so in discussions with them, there are many compromises they make. Some composers are more knowing of the horn's capabilities, like Tchaikovsky, and utilize their abilities carefully and well. 

At the Maestronet level of conversation, some instruments react differently in more extreme keys ( perhaps more flats  than sharps ) where an Arvo Part piece might be performed on a modern instrument over an older one as the overtones  would help clarify the pitches on a newer instrument. Of course this is subjective. but when working with some musicians, I am asked to ( often ) play louder when they can't "hear" the instrument thru particular parts. I can certainly play louder, but on a "brighter" sounding instrument ( whether modern or not ) the other players - perhaps a pianist - can hear what it is that can be expressed.

Maestronet 2.0 might require that we are very careful ( aware ) how firmly we squeeze the neck on certain pitches and associated fingerings to maximized the best - required? - tone possible fpr the musical passage. Not that this exempts cellists, but some instruments react differently to how players "squeeze" the neck when working through a musical passage. 

When preparing for a performance, most viable fingerings and bowings are tried. On certain days, due to the proximity to a performance, the instrument chosen for that performance will be used but occasionally another instrument might take its place. It is interesting to hear the variation in sounds that are produced.

Listening to how the instrument voices the whole of the work makes a difference. Fingerings do matter. And the related intonation.

For the sake of this discussion, not all cases. perhaps the more flats in a work, we settle into the pitch during the pitch depending on the tempo, while a piece with many keys is played brighter, or on the sharper side of the pitch or the vibrato. Of course vibrato varies quite a bit, but there needs to be a center.

Even though I hear C major as a bright key, +flats or +sharps also can influence how we hear a melody. I am currently working on a piece with many flats and the middle section switches to many sharps. The composer chose to go for a brighter, faster colour in the middle before relaxing again, returning to the original key. The piano stays relatively stable in pitch as it has no true vibrato. But against that textured canvas, the player has the ability to add their ideas.

I am frequently asked to change instruments or the speed or the width of the vibrato, as the pianist hears it. If it is possible, changes will be made. This piece will be played on modern instrument with a modern French bow. The colours are more vivid.

So much of how a performance is approached is about the audience. My audience does not pay much. For that reason, much of what is played is more vivid. I hate to say that ideas are over- stressed, but the contrasts are larger.

When working at a much more sublime- level, with -  perhaps - better artists, many of the ideas and techniques are toned down. No one ever says a thing when an older French instrument is played. 

 

 

 

[GoPractice]

43 minutes ago, Rue said:

No. 

I don’t have perfect pitch, yet I can tell a major key from a minor key.

But I might not be able to tell a D major from an A major - depending.

If you weren't able to tell that the orchestra was playing THAT flat, it could be because you weren't expecting it, and you may have been familiar with the the piece. And of course, the noise of the milieu will affect what you are hearing.

If I play something flat or sharp, I usually don't notice either, as long as all the notes are adjusted flat or sharp. 

But I can certainly tell if one note is too flat or sharp.

My view is that if it is possible to express what the composer intended, that we could express it with some precision.

If the audience member "feels" that the piece was written ( in a particular key ) in a key that expressed an emotion, than it might have succeeded.

Both Nessun Dorma ( Puccini )  and Vesti La Giubba from Pagliacci are sung in a key with one sharp. It can be argued that the performance makes the difference, but I also feel that the single sharp adds the warmth or depth. Of course there are so many other factors like tempi. The best musicians make the best of the music. Being more academic, in the trinity of composer, performer, audience, expressing the intended key is important. Opera is also restricted by vocal range, but it can also be the pinnacle of musical expression. Pavarotti sings both. When people ask me about the importance of tone, bowed instruments do not compare to what this man was capable of producing. Aside from the David and the Soil ( performed on by their iconic owners ) there are very few instruments that the average person can identify.

Sorry, blathering. Enjoying a nice salad for lunch. When teaching this subject, most students show no resistance. Perhaps because the subject is esoteric. Or perhaps they are robots.

[GoPractice]

Sorry, last silly comment.

In working with kids, studies in music require a common area of discussion. Since most of us eat everyday, food is often a subject. Defining flavors and textures are what I use in the area of tone selection. This also personalizes one's experiences and perhaps, preferences.

Some of us do not have a good sense of taste or smell.... 

 

  

[Rue]

Kid explanations work well for me!!!  And for most adults I assume! 

[Bill Merkel]

Ask any singer why!  For that matter, ask any player -- aren't certain figures more appropriate for certain keys, e.g. just easier?  Imagine the E major prelude for violin in Eb.  But on violin at least certain keys are brighter because of the ringing.  You might want a somber section in a key where you don't get that, but in something sprightly like the prelude, bring it on...

[PhilipKT]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

No. 

I don’t have perfect pitch, yet I can tell a major key from a minor key.

But I might not be able to tell a D major from an A major - depending.

If you weren't able to tell that the orchestra was playing THAT flat, it could be because you weren't expecting it, and you may have been familiar with the the piece. And of course, the noise of the milieu will affect what you are hearing.

If I play something flat or sharp, I usually don't notice either, as long as all the notes are adjusted flat or sharp. 

But I can certainly tell if one note is too flat or sharp.

The question is not about major versus minor, that’s another thing entirely, the question is about choosing one major key over another major key. What is the difference between D- flat major and B-flat major, for instance?

[PhilipKT]

5 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

Ask any singer why!  For that matter, ask any player -- aren't certain figures more appropriate for certain keys, e.g. just easier?  Imagine the E major prelude for violin in Eb.  But on violin at least certain keys are brighter because of the ringing.  You might want a somber section in a key where you don't get that, but in something sprightly like the prelude, bring it on...

It goes without saying that some keys are chosen because of their particular character on a given instrument. On the cello, all of the sharp keys except G render at least One open string unusable, and A major Is a maelstrom of potential intonation problems, Because it requires a lot of open positions, i.e. extensions.
I prefer the flat keys: F major might be my favorite. But that is a reference to the act of fitting a particular key to a particular instrument, and that’s easy to fathom: Some keys are just easier to play on the cello. Cowell’s Hymn & Fuguing Tune #9, Which is gorgeous, is in A major, and damned difficult to play in tune. The Fugue is in A minor and is far easier to play in tune.

So choosing a key to suit the nature of the instrument goes without saying, but I was really asking regarding the keyboard, because the lass with whom I was having the discussion is a pianist.

@RueYour comment about not being able to tell the difference between the major and a major proves my point that one major scale chosen over another major scale doesn’t mean anything. @jacobsaunders Story about the queen concert illustrated the difference between, for instance, E flat Major, and C major, which is the minor third difference to which he referred, and nobody could tell any difference except the guy with perfect pitch.

So it seems that these days there’s no reason to choose one major key over another Except convenience.

Edited November 10, 2021 by PhilipKT

[Stephen Fine]

There's a great little book that I sometimes recommend, How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and why you should care) by Ross Duffin.

Pianos sound different in different registers.  Just like the human voice.  Tessitura is very important.

And then, as everyone is saying, our instruments ring in particular ways.

[PhilipKT]

24 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

There's a great little book that I sometimes recommend, How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and why you should care) by Ross Duffin.

Pianos sound different in different registers.  Just like the human voice.  Tessitura is very important.

And then, as everyone is saying, our instruments ring in particular ways.

I tried to read that book, but didn’t get very far. However I highly recommend “temperament.” It is a fascinating treatment of what could’ve been a very boring subject, but it was fascinating. You’ve probably already read it but if you haven’t, pick up a copy.

And the register has nothing to do with the key, you can play any key in any register, although I agree that if you spend an entire piece noodling in the top two octaves of the keyboard, It will sound odd.

[violinnewb]

With my rudimentary understanding of theory, and some attempts at composing short chamber works, my response is that composers choose different keys depending upon the instrumentation of the work.

Different instruments have different registers, etc...

Is there really a noticeable difference?  I wouldn't be able to tell. 

Many examples of singers were used here...Some singers may be under the weather that day or age has caught up with them and they cannot hit that high note.  Changing the key to accommodate happens regularly and I cannot say that it really makes me like the song more or less.  For instance, Bon Jovi regularly sings in a lower key these days.  I still enjoy the music, but yes..I do notice because I have perfect pitch and don't remember the songs in that key. 

[ctanzio]

Different musical concepts are being conflated in some of the posts. Understandable since words like "key" and "scale" are frequently used in the same context for casual conversation.

Using an equal tempered tuned piano as a reference point...

Pick a key, any key. It has a frequency of vibration. Now multiply that frequency by the twelfth root of 2 (~1.05946309436). That gives you the frequency of the key immediately to its right.

Divide by that number and you get the key immediately to its left.

Continue in this way and by the twelfth key from the original one you picked, its frequency will be doubled, i.e., an "octave" higher.

These series of 11 consecutive keys are call a "scale". Technically, the equal tempered chromatic scale. Emotionally, we "feel" the scale acoustically repeating for the next series of 11 notes.

The first note of the scale is called the "key" of the scale, not to be confused with the black or white levers on the piano which are also called keys.

In Western music, we pick a smaller number of these 12 notes that are 2 notes apart (half steps) or 4 notes apart (whole steps), and from a simpler scale called a Heptatonic scale (7 notes).

If such scales always have exactly 5 whole steps and 2 half steps, they are called Diatonic scales. There are seven unique variations of Diatonic scales, and each unique variation is traditionally called a Diatonic MODE. 

If you start on any C on the piano and play only consecutive white keys, the sequence is

WHOLE-WHOLE-HALF-WHOLE-WHOLE-WHOLE-HALF,

the C Major Scale. C is the Key, Major is the Mode.

This sequence of notes has a certain psychological feel to it. If you start on any D note and play the black F# and C# keys instead of the white keys, the separation between the consecutive notes is the same as C Major. It has the same psychological effect. It is the D Major Scale.

D is the Key, Major is the Mode.

When someone says they can tell the difference between a Major and a Minor scale, they are not talking about the note that starts the scale, but rather the difference in spacing between the 7 notes, i.e., the Mode.

For example, if you start on an A note and play consecutive white keys on a piano, it has a distinctly different emotional feel than starting on the C. It sounds sad. It is the A Minor scale. A minor scale has the following pattern:

WHOLE-HALF-WHOLE-WHOLE-HALF-WHOLE-WHOLE

A is the Key, Minor is the Mode.

If you start on a C, and play the Eb, Ab, and Bb black keys instead of the white keys, it will have the same emotional feel as the A minor key. It is the C Minor Scale.

C is the Key, Minor is the mode.

We also have different emotional reactions to different frequency ranges. So a C Major scale played far to the right of a piano keyboard will elicit a different emotional response than a C Major scale played way to the left. So transcribing musical by multiple octaves in order to use the playing range of a different instrument (like violin versus cello), can dramatically change the feel of the piece.

In folk fiddle music, one will often encounter the Mixolydian and Dorian Diatonic modes. You can look these up on the internet.

Popular Jazz Scales start with a Diatonic mode, and raise or lower one or more of the notes in the 7 note scale by a quarter step (one sharp or one flat).

Much ancient music and some contemporary music uses variations of 5 note scales. There are a lot of beautiful tunes for the violin based on the so-called 5 ringtones of the violin: G A B D E.

https://musescore.com/user/1910051/scores/6155165

[Rue]

18 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

The question is not about major versus minor, that’s another thing entirely, the question is about choosing one major key over another major key. What is the difference between D- flat major and B-flat major, for instance?

It's still colour. I will assume it's also more colourful to those with perfect pitch.

Even I can hear the difference between say, an F major and a D major . They "feel" different.

[PhilipKT]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

It's still colour. I will assume it's also more colourful to those with perfect pitch.

Even I can hear the difference between say, an F major and a D major . They "feel" different.

Given that the western tuning system is out of tune, I would imagine that those with perfect pitch go completely mad every time they go to a concert.

Meanwhile I will accept your answer, but I still find it vaguely unsatisfying, Because as a cellist, what changes the color of the key is where it is played on the cello, and not the key itself, And that can’t be true of the piano.

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Given that the western tuning system is out of tune, I would imagine that those with perfect pitch go completely mad every time they go to a concert.

Meanwhile I will accept your answer, but I still find it vaguely unsatisfying, Because as a cellist, what changes the color of the key is where it is played on the cello, and not the key itself, And that can’t be true of the piano.

You are misunderstanding the concept of "tuning system" or "temperature". The western system isn't out of tune in itself or for a perfect pitch, only in comparison to other systems which are based on different scales (or modes). All these aren't really natural (except the pure mathematical fifths and eights), but learned by our brains, usually from what a person is used to hear from childhood onwards, but can also be extended to different tuning systems by later learning.

It's comparable (in some ways) to the process how a child is learning to tune the cello, the guitar or even a piano by hearing only.

There are also opinons that something like perfect pitch hearing is subject to a learning process, too, at least to a certain degree. Given that a person is used to tune a violin for many years, I guess that most will hear if the pitch is roughly near to the 441 without any further comparison.

So "color" might be something what depends of many factors, of the instruments, of the technique of the player, and at least of the way you are used to hear something, or even to play if you are a musician. For example Freddy Mercury of Queen would reach a g' in a recording session, but not repeatedly at a two hours outside concert show and this maybe several times a week. Therefore they tuned it all down to give him the ease, and the listener without perfect pitch of hearing could have noticed it in his/her own throat when singing along (in tune) loudly. This would be a way to define color.

[chiaroscuro_violins]

/

[PhilipKT]

8 hours ago, Blank face said:

You are misunderstanding the concept of "tuning system" or "temperature". The western system isn't out of tune in itself or for a perfect pitch, only in comparison to other systems which are based on different scales (or modes). All these aren't really natural (except the pure mathematical fifths and eights), but learned by our brains, usually from what a person is used to hear from childhood onwards, but can also be extended to different tuning systems by later learning.

It's comparable (in some ways) to the process how a child is learning to tune the cello, the guitar or even a piano by hearing only.

There are also opinons that something like perfect pitch hearing is subject to a learning process, too, at least to a certain degree. Given that a person is used to tune a violin for many years, I guess that most will hear if the pitch is roughly near to the 441 without any further comparison.

So "color" might be something what depends of many factors, of the instruments, of the technique of the player, and at least of the way you are used to hear something, or even to play if you are a musician. For example Freddy Mercury of Queen would reach a g' in a recording session, but not repeatedly at a two hours outside concert show and this maybe several times a week. Therefore they tuned it all down to give him the ease, and the listener without perfect pitch of hearing could have noticed it in his/her own throat when singing along (in tune) loudly. This would be a way to define color.

In order to use each key equally, every pitch had to be tuned to be equally apart from every other pitch. That means that some tuning systems are more in tune than others, but they are more limited in the keys they can effectively play. The compromise was necessary so that Composers could go from any key to any other key. Although I have never heard such a performance, performances of period Music played with a tuning approach That allows for more accurate tuning in fewer keys is said to be a revelation.

because string instruments are continuously adjustable, it is possible, it is even necessary to make adjustments to play correctly in tune, so even though we do learn to get used to the pitch we hear on the piano, because that’s what everybody has, it is not “in tune.“ And when we do hear correct intonation, we can tell the difference. If learning by ear were true, then this video guide would be meaningless. Instead it clearly shows that we hear some intervals as more in tune than others. We accept the limits of relative tuning, but we are certainly aware of them.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by PhilipKT
Addendum