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RIP Bernard Haitink


christian bayon

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1 hour ago, Carl Stross said:

You are not paying attention and you are lecturing me in things you know little about.  "In the broader context, universal simply means accessible to the public at large"  is a complete nonsense. A LOT of music is not accessible to the public at large, was never intended to be and may have been intended to be inaccessible to the public at large. As well, music using frequencies between 20 and 16000Hz is accessible to the public at large but may well be not "universal". 

And the "member" did not attempt to clarify anything. The member simply supplied to usual word salad.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that smart as you are, you figured out by now what a can of worms is the word universal when applied to music.  

Intent does not prevent universality.  Shostakovich's music is accessible by the public at large right now, in 2021, whether intended to be or not.  That is my point.  Libraries, CD's, LP's, cassette tapes, 8 tracks, internet, all make at least some of Shostakovich's work accessible, and as such, within the definition of universal.

Lastly, I have not once made a personal attack on you.  When you say that I "know little about" certain things, without knowing me at all, that is a personal attack that is quite uncalled for. I ask that you refrain from such tactics as they do nothing but intensify an otherwise civil and learned debate.  

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3 hours ago, violinnewb said:

1. Intent does not prevent universality. 

2. Shostakovich's music is accessible by the public at large right now, in 2021, whether intended to be or not.  That is my point.  Libraries, CD's, LP's, cassette tapes, 8 tracks, internet, all make at least some of Shostakovich's work accessible, and as such, within the definition of universal.

3. Lastly, I have not once made a personal attack on you. 

4. When you say that I "know little about" certain things, without knowing me at all, that is a personal attack that is quite uncalled for. I ask that you refrain from such tactics as they do nothing but intensify an otherwise civil and learned debate.  

1. Sure. But that's not what I am talking about.

2. Sure - it is accessible. Again, not what I am talking about. Music could be universal with zero accessibility. 

3. Thank you.

4. That is not a personal attack and you should not look at it as such unless of course you are one of the permanently offended.  And you've just twisted my words : what I said was "you are lecturing me in things you know little about". You are more than welcome to lecture me in things you have some substantial knowledge and I will appreciate the opportunity to learn. 

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7 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

Carl likes Haitink well enough. Carl likes conductors who restrain themselves from over-interpreting the score and let the composer  speak what and how he intended. What Carl doesn't like is your presumptuous and intellectually irresponsible use in this context, of the word universal.  

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY UNIVERSAL COMPOSER and UNIVERSAL MUSIC ??? 

Who's deciding some piece of music or some composer deserve the universal accolade ?

 

Carl, if you don’t get the term, you should study a bit more.
Meanwhile, you are needlessly contentious and sometimes it is difficult to discuss things with you. I often appreciate your thoughts, so I’m not going to block you(and I have blocked a few contentious non-contributors) but I’m not going to engage you any more on this subject.

I’ve made my point, and made it well, and you are free to disagree if you wish.

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7 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Carl, if you don’t get the term, you should study a bit more.
Meanwhile, you are needlessly contentious and sometimes it is difficult to discuss things with you. I often appreciate your thoughts, so I’m not going to block you(and I have blocked a few contentious non-contributors) but I’m not going to engage you any more on this subject.

I’ve made my point, and made it well, and you are free to disagree if you wish.

You're more than welcome to block me if you so wish - you are doing me no favors, nor do I care. 

I do not get the term and by the way, neither did others who read the thread. (It actually elicited quite a discussion in the usual manner : emails) . And it seems neither did you. 

Have a nice day !

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