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8 hours ago, KB_Smith said:

Yes!  It was difficult to find, because it is branded or stamped into the back about half way between the top of the Cs and the top of the violin's body - where the neck connects to the body of the violin.  It was even harder to image.  I have SmartCamera endoscope, but the only place I can fit the business end of it inside the violin is through the larger hole at the bottom of the ffs.  Then I have to snake it and twist it around attempting to get it pointed at whatever I want to image, and I'm not very experienced using this thing.  But, I did manage to image the "star", or what I would call a sunburst.  I'm pretty sure below the star are the initials JTL.  Here's the image.

 

Snap_003.jpg

Thanks KB,

That was not the stamp I was expecting,I've never seen that particular branding

The ones that I have seen are a capital letter D  or M or S and a five pointed star.

Has anyone seen this particular branding,it is the style of their logos.Usually the top block is

stamped but as has been said on the forum numerous times,not always.

 

 

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7 hours ago, KB_Smith said:

I’m also interested in knowing if any MN experts are familiar with this stamp or brand. 

I haven’t seen it before, nor have I seen a JTL brand in that position.

I have only seen the familiar lyre brand, or a simple JTL on the top block.

Or the occasional grading initials that Gtone mentions.

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On 10/7/2021 at 9:49 AM, martin swan said:

At first sight I find the bulbous scroll eye a bit unexpected .. but just because I've never seen this on a JTL.

 

There is an example of a 'Violon Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy fait à la fin du 19ème à la manière de Caussin' with a similar looking scroll eye (albeit only a side view) and 'antiquing' in the Mirecourt luthiers gallery pages: https://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/galerie_instruments.htm#64

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I found this in another MN thread from 2010. The thread title is

"Label with harp in circle, similar to A. S. label"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Luthier,

Does it look anything like this?;- post-28965-1286762071_thumb.jpg

Tony

That's the JTL trademark.

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And found these in Google images:  

Violins on Sale - JTL - The Violin Connection of Southern Africa

Violins on Sale - JTL Violin - The Violin Connection of Southern Africa

Label with harp in circle, similar to A. S. label - The Pegbox - Maestronet  Forums

 

I can't see the harp logo in the center of the brand in my violin, but I really can't get a good direct view of the logo in my violin because of where it is located.  I can only view it from an extremely oblique, low-grazing angle. There is an oblong-ish shape to the center of the image I posted of the sunburst brand inside my violin, which I can now imagine is a harp, but that may really be my wishful thinking influencing what I think I see.  But, it looks like JTL had different versions of the harp & rays logo, and it seems to fit in concept.  Wish I could get a direct 90 degree angle look at the one inside my violin.

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1 hour ago, KB_Smith said:

I found this in another MN thread from 2010. The thread title is

"Label with harp in circle, similar to A. S. label"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Luthier,

Does it look anything like this?;- post-28965-1286762071_thumb.jpg

Tony

That's the JTL trademark.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And found these in Google images:  

Violins on Sale - JTL - The Violin Connection of Southern Africa

Violins on Sale - JTL Violin - The Violin Connection of Southern Africa

Label with harp in circle, similar to A. S. label - The Pegbox - Maestronet  Forums

 

I can't see the harp logo in the center of the brand in my violin, but I really can't get a good direct view of the logo in my violin because of where it is located.  I can only view it from an extremely oblique, low-grazing angle. There is an oblong-ish shape to the center of the image I posted of the sunburst brand inside my violin, which I can now imagine is a harp, but that may really be my wishful thinking influencing what I think I see.  But, it looks like JTL had different versions of the harp & rays logo, and it seems to fit in concept.  Wish I could get a direct 90 degree angle look at the one inside my violin.

Here's a little simple Photoshop work on your brand photo.  :)

1920JTL05.jpg.89a26d14a944969ec368a1e971708a40.jpg

 

And here's the brand that Blankie posted from the flute, similarly manipulated, with the addition of being color inverted.

Blankie-Flute07.thumb.jpg.428d87a8bef0b5a83dab9127e48cd554.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Yes, for a cheaper model JTL, but not so much for the higher level JTL models.

Are we talking retail prices?  I cannot imagine any older violin being sold in a shop for much less than $4,000 unless the violin was in truly poor condition, sounded poorly, or was from an obscure and unreknown provenance.  

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I bought this violin from David Bromberg Fine Violins in Wilmington, Delaware. So, while I paid retail for it, he did not actually charge me his full retail asking price. Mr Bromberg told me he was in the process of closing his shop. Given my budget and his desire to reduce inventory, he told me he would reduce his price on this violin to $4000 for me. We never discussed the price he was reducing it from, but I took him at his word and I believe him to be an honest dealer. 
 

This link to The Violin Connection of South Africa http://www.violins.co.za/sale/0692JTL.asp says:

 

“The international price history for a JTL violin in good condition shows a retail price Of US $3000-4000.”

I would trust Martin Swan’s opinion about fair retail price for an early-1900s JTL in good condition.

Im very happy with this violin and I think I paid a fair price for it. 

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1 hour ago, violinnewb said:

Are we talking retail prices?  I cannot imagine any older violin being sold in a shop for much less than $4,000 unless the violin was in truly poor condition, sounded poorly, or was from an obscure and unreknown provenance.  

Then you are not familiar with JTL instruments, even a mint condition Medio-Fino is not worth close to $4000

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1 hour ago, KB_Smith said:

I bought this violin from David Bromberg Fine Violins in Wilmington, Delaware. So, while I paid retail for it, he did not actually charge me his full retail asking price. Mr Bromberg told me he was in the process of closing his shop. Given my budget and his desire to reduce inventory, he told me he would reduce his price on this violin to $4000 for me. We never discussed the price he was reducing it from, but I took him at his word and I believe him to be an honest dealer. 
 

This link to The Violin Connection of South Africa http://www.violins.co.za/sale/0692JTL.asp says:

 

“The international price history for a JTL violin in good condition shows a retail price Of US $3000-4000.”

I would trust Martin Swan’s opinion about fair retail price for an early-1900s JTL in good condition.

Im very happy with this violin and I think I paid a fair price for it. 

JTL came in many price points, this would only be true of the more expensive models.

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1 hour ago, KB_Smith said:

I bought this violin from David Bromberg Fine Violins in Wilmington, Delaware. So, while I paid retail for it, he did not actually charge me his full retail asking price. Mr Bromberg told me he was in the process of closing his shop. Given my budget and his desire to reduce inventory, he told me he would reduce his price on this violin to $4000 for me. We never discussed the price he was reducing it from, but I took him at his word and I believe him to be an honest dealer. 
 

This link to The Violin Connection of South Africa http://www.violins.co.za/sale/0692JTL.asp says:

 

“The international price history for a JTL violin in good condition shows a retail price Of US $3000-4000.”

I would trust Martin Swan’s opinion about fair retail price for an early-1900s JTL in good condition.

Im very happy with this violin and I think I paid a fair price for it. 

So according to your research, an honest dealer reduced the price of a violin which landed it in the very highest end of the retail price range. Not sure quite what to make of this, or do I?

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34 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

JTL came in many price points, this would only be true of the more expensive models.

 

On 10/7/2021 at 4:49 AM, martin swan said:

The label looks right (there were a couple of labels, this being an earlier one, see page 10 here : https://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/thibouville1919.htm

If we accept that the label looks right, as Martin pointed out, then this violin is a Luthier D'Art model, definitely one of the "more expensive models" JTL offered in its 1919 catalogue.

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Also, while I certainly can't speak for Martin, he shows a 1905 JTL violin he sold on his website.  It does not say what he sold it for, but the page includes a link to "Look at other violins in this price range," which takes you to his "Professional Violins £5K to £20K."  there is no way for me to know if my violin compares in quality, playability, sound, condition, etc. to the 1905 JTL Martin sold, and I'm sure even Martin can't make that comparison from photos alone.  But my point is that my instrument COULD be in the £5K+ retail price range, so $4,000 would be a fair price.  

Maybe more importantly, I spent the money, I love the violin, and I feel like I got a great instrument at a very fair price.

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Could we just accept that the violin market, and by implication everyone associated with it, is irrational, and move along? :lol: You guys know that arguing this economic stuff never goes anywhere, and everybody will leave with whatever beliefs they came in with.  :)

[Waddles off, laughing, to play her grossly undervalued real Italian.  :ph34r:]

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50 minutes ago, BassClef said:

So according to your research, an honest dealer reduced the price of a violin which landed it in the very highest end of the retail price range. Not sure quite what to make of this, or do I?

$4000 is not the highest end of the range for a good JTL. It might have been 10-20 years ago, but prices have been increasing. People are paying that for good Markneukirchen violins now, and the prices of French violins are anything but stagnant. 

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