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Johann Christoph Leidolff Vienna 1736 Cello in original condition


jacobsaunders
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Of course the whole Berner Land and Würtemberg/Black Forest could be seen as a cultural homogenic catholic area, in opposite to the protestantic rest of Switzerland, where, as the SVGB Lexikon states, was no violin making during the period. The whole matter is interesting but a bit off topic here. The meaning of N.Leydolff as being from Schweiz could point to a workshop in the Bern region, but also to anything else, that's a matter of pure speculation indeed without archival evidence, as the connection to the Landolfis, too.

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26 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Of course the whole Berner Land and Würtemberg/Black Forest could be seen as a cultural homogenic catholic area, in opposite to the protestantic rest of Switzerland, where, as the SVGB Lexikon states, was no violin making during the period. The whole matter is interesting but a bit off topic here. The meaning of N.Leydolff as being from Schweiz could point to a workshop in the Bern region, but also to anything else, that's a matter of pure speculation indeed without archival evidence, as the connection to the Landolfis, too.

I entirely agree. One may speculate, but the only concrete fact one has, is that he married an Ott widdow, which would suggest an ethnic Füssen background, wherever he worked as a journeyman

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On 10/1/2021 at 5:41 AM, Hempel said:

In Nicolaus Leidolf's time those in his profession would have been referred to as "Lautenmacher" and not "Geigenmacher." The earliest documented German-language references I've found to "Geigenmacher" came from mining towns like Dürrnberg/Hallein and other Pinzgau villages (makers such as Waßner, Steiger, etc.).

 

Is Tobias Strobl a little earlier in Krems than what you've found?

Capture.PNG

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Tobias Strobl was born 12/1670 in Hallein, son of Elias Strobl.  2/1699 in Hallein he married Maria Ert.  Later, in Krems, 6/1735, a widower at age 64, he married Maria Anna Haid. 

Elias Strobl was the brother of Johann Strobl ("Geigenmacher").  Elias was recorded as "Geiger und Geigenmacher" at Tobias' first marriage.

The Strobl line of violin makers ("Geigenmacher") originated in Hallein.  You can easily spot this if you look at the Strobl names in Lütgendorff.  Violin-family instruments may have been the only instruments Tobias Strobl knew how to make considering his origin. 

I don't think this specific information regarding Elias & Tobias Strobl has been published elsewhere.  Congratulations on picking out a maker that emphasizes the point I made earlier. :)

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6 hours ago, Gtone said:

Is Tobias Strobl a little earlier in Krems than what you've found?

Capture.PNG

I have never seen a Tobias Strobl, Krems violin personally, although I have seen a couple

of late 19th C Saxon boxes with a Strobl “Fahrkarte” (which is probably what Lütgendorff’s label is). I did find records of where he lived in Krems. He rented a couple of rooms from the council, where the Music school used to be. I also found records of them expelling Strobl from the town, because he, as a foreigner had had the temerity to marry a local girl, without getting permission. Strobl was from Hallein, in rural Salzburg, and was thus a foreigner, since Salzburg didn't become part of Austria until the early 19th C.

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14 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I have never seen a Tobias Strobl, Krems violin personally, although I have seen a couple

of late 19th C Saxon boxes with a Strobl"Fahrkarte” (which is probably what Lütgendorff’s label is). I did find records of where he lived in Krems. He rented a couple of rooms from the council, where the Music school used to be. I also found records of them expelling Strobl from the town, because he, as a foreigner had had the temerity to marry a local girl, without getting permission. Strobl was from Hallein, in rural Salzburg, and was thus a foreigner, since Salzburg didn't become part of Austria until the early 19th C.

Very informative,I wonder upon expulsion from town they gave Tobias a Fahrkarte.

As a side note do you think Lütgendorff’s labels of Stadlmanns' are genuine?

and thanks again Jacob.

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3 hours ago, Gtone said:

Very informative,I wonder upon expulsion from town they gave Tobias a Fahrkarte.

Evidence of this is hard to come by, but it wouldn't surprise me if Strobl family members were crypto-Protestants.

As such Tobias Strobl was likely part of the (earlier) Salzburg Expulsion.

Would be ironic if he was expelled from Krems too.  His funeral was in Krems.

I'd give Lutgendorff reproduction of the Tobias Strobl label the benefit of doubt, since the "Geigenmacher" terminology used is consistent with Hallein makers such as Waßlberger and Ebner families, as well as his own.

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Jacob do "we" have any idea about the varnish composition ? I'm always fascinated by these very dark looking varnishes that do not "chip" off. It seems that many of these "dark" appearing varnishes on lesser instrument are prone to wearing off, whereas this one seems quite intact and very "mean" looking , in a good way, anyways thank for sharing, I always appreciate your post's like these, very educational.

ps thanks to blank face too, his commentary is always informative too

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32 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Jacob do "we" have any idea about the varnish composition ? I'm always fascinated by these very dark looking varnishes that do not "chip" off. It seems that many of these "dark" appearing varnishes on lesser instrument are prone to wearing off, whereas this one seems quite intact and very "mean" looking , in a good way, anyways thank for sharing, I always appreciate your post's like these, very educational.

ps thanks to blank face too, his commentary is always informative too

I have regularly commented on this varnish, most recently here, : https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/348903-your-favourite-violin-colour-is/&do=findComment&comment=937546 although I would hesitate to claim that I have “any idea”

also once in more detail on Bass clefs legendary “Plunge” thread. Perhaps he has a link to that, because I don’t want to spend all afternoon looking for it

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I have regularly commented on this varnish, most recently here, : https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/348903-your-favourite-violin-colour-is/&do=findComment&comment=937546 although I would hesitate to claim that I have “any idea”

also once in more detail on Bass clefs legendary “Plunge” thread. Perhaps he has a link to that, because I don’t want to spend all afternoon looking for it

To find the Plunge and Oops threads, go to the auction scroll and sort by most replies. Here is the plunge thread link, further search this massive thread for the words “soot” or “ash” (I forget which term Jacob used) to find his amazing post about his findings that you seek:
 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329003-took-the-plunge-first-ebay-violin-toughts/

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7 minutes ago, BassClef said:

To find the Plunge and Oops threads, go to the auction scroll and sort by most replies. Here is the plunge thread link, further search this massive thread for the words “soot” or “ash” (I forget which term Jacob used) to find his amazing post about his findings that you seek:
 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329003-took-the-plunge-first-ebay-violin-toughts/

Thanks, here then https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329003-took-the-plunge-first-ebay-violin-toughts/&do=findComment&comment=597317

 

 

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On 9/29/2021 at 6:36 AM, Blank face said:

BTW here is the 17th and 18th century peg tableau, and for further interest, an 18th century cello neck (said to be by S. Serafin, who knows?). 

Scan_20210929 (2).jpg

 

I'm very curious as to where and when this peg photo was taken. When I visited the Germanisches Museum to look at the collection, it was not displayed like this. I have photos from the Galpin Soc. Journal that show the Schreinzer pegs while they were in Vienna. When I saw them in the 80's some of the collection had been auctioned off and they were in boxes in the Museum "stacks" not on display. There were also some pegs with labels noting the instruments they came from. There was a fidula (sp?) peg from the 16th Century the Galpin  photo missing from this photo and mine.

Schreinzer pegs.jpg

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16 minutes ago, MeyerFittings said:

I'm very curious as to where and when this peg photo was taken. When I visited the Germanisches Museum to look at the collection, it was not displayed like this. I have photos from the Galpin Soc. Journal that show the Schreinzer pegs while they were in Vienna. When I saw them in the 80's some of the collection had been auctioned off and they were in boxes in the Museum "stacks" not on display. There were also some pegs with labels noting the instruments they came from. There was a fidula (sp?) peg from the 16th Century the Galpin  photo missing from this photo and mine.

Schreinzer pegs.jpg

How would you characterise the pegs that come with the cello please?

Leidolff 1736 Scroll side.jpg

Leidolff 1736 Scroll.jpg

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29 minutes ago, MeyerFittings said:

I'm very curious as to where and when this peg photo was taken. When I visited the Germanisches Museum to look at the collection, it was not displayed like this. I have photos from the Galpin Soc. Journal that show the Schreinzer pegs while they were in Vienna. When I saw them in the 80's some of the collection had been auctioned off and they were in boxes in the Museum "stacks" not on display. There were also some pegs with labels noting the instruments they came from. There was a fidula (sp?) peg from the 16th Century the Galpin  photo missing from this photo and mine.

The 17th C. pegs posted by Blankface are in the collection of Berlin Musical Instruments Museum.  Or at least they were at one time.

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43 minutes ago, MeyerFittings said:

I'm very curious as to where and when this peg photo was taken. 

This photos are from the 2007 Bongartz catalogue, when they auctioned the Hoesch collection. Didn’t we discuss it at some point before? It’s unknown to me who bought it.

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11 minutes ago, Blank face said:

This photos are from the 2007 Bongartz catalogue, when they auctioned the Hoesch collection. Didn’t we discuss it at some point before? It’s unknown to me who bought it.

Likely discussed it in the Plunge thread, and thanks to you I got an copy back then. Much appreciated Blank Face!

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A quick search for peg discussions in Maestronet didn't found much about the Schreinzer, nonetheless some interesting topics:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327739-south-german-18th-century-violins-with-original-fittings/

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/339448-peg-ology/

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329730-a-sweet-little-peg-from-peggsylvannia/page/2/

More likely we discussed the bridges and tailpieces more than pegs.

So I might quote Rudolph Hopfner from the Geissenhof book, who gives the impressive number of 4165 historical pegs collected by Schreinzer, who arranged many of them at tableaus like the pictured and took photo albums of them. Therefore I'm assuming that all these b/w photos could be from the original Schreinzer album itself.

One of these albums is kept in the Kunsthistorische Museum in Vienna, parts of the collection in the Germanische in Nürnberg, the rest in private Viennese and other collections (everything acc. to Hopfner). The tableaus auctioned at Bongartz can be a small fraction of the whole collection of pegs only, so one can just hope that the rest will be published in future times the one or other way.

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23 hours ago, Blank face said:

This photos are from the 2007 Bongartz catalogue, when they auctioned the Hoesch collection. Didn’t we discuss it at some point before? It’s unknown to me who bought it.

We did discuss this before, but my memory apparatus has been through some  dire events this last year.  Do you have access to a list of the items in the auction? I can't find any reference online.

Joseph, the 4th peg from the bottom left page is labelled J. Leidolff 1758. the outer shape is similar but I haven't seen any very early pegs with that style concave yet bulbous top. I agree it's early and could be original, but I don't have any identifiable cello peg photos with concave shapes to compare. I'll look for a photo of the Leidolff labeled peg.   I'd magnify it for you but my PC is acting up.

 

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1 hour ago, MeyerFittings said:

We did discuss this before, but my memory apparatus has been through some  dire events this last year.  Do you have access to a list of the items in the auction? I can't find any reference online.

Joseph, the 4th peg from the bottom left page is labelled J. Leidolff 1758. the outer shape is similar but I haven't seen any very early pegs with that style concave yet bulbous top. I agree it's early and could be original, but I don't have any identifiable cello peg photos with concave shapes to compare. I'll look for a photo of the Leidolff labeled peg.   I'd magnify it for you but my PC is acting up.

 

 

1 hour ago, BassClef said:

Here is a slightly crisper image of what BF posted, I’m happy to zoom in on any particular peg should there be interest.

I didn’t see any description of this lot in the catalog.

4819F260-2B8A-4AF3-BF70-E129F904D34C.jpeg

 

There are descriptions/list of items in the printed catalogue, but they are widespread all over the booklet and one has to search a bit, and all in German. Only a few of the many numbers have photos. The description of the peg tableau is at page 5, No.36, and reads "Tableau with 32 artistically worked pegs from boxwood and ivory, 17. and 18th century". Note that they ascribe them not only to the 17th, but to the 18th century, too.

There's a full list of descriptions of all items, including templates, necks, bassbars, bridges, tailpieces, mutes, letters, photographis etc. from the Schreinzer collection, later owned by the entrepreneur Hoesch. I think that we mostly discussed the tailpieces, not the pegs.

Scan_20211005.jpg

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This is quite interesting as to the neck angles of the older Baroque cellos!

Can anyone throw some light as to when the older Cellos were modified and how?

Ive seen old violins with their original short necks that have been reangled but not lengthened.

Also did this modification occur around 1820 like the violins?

 

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