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Tool marks on violins/cellos/violas - style, tradition, or mistakes?


BassClef
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A couple of comments regarding the Strad-Rugeri connection:

--I don't think Charles Beare is in the habit of saying things he doesn't fully understand to the necessary depth, so I can't imagine him speculating in print about that connection without evidence. You wouldn't want it any other way.

--Carlo Chiesa and Duane Rosengard spent some years reading every piece of archival paper in Cremona looking for violin maker names, and then spread that search to other cities. If there's something there, it's a good guess that it's already been found. I'll guess that if they'd found something juicy, they'd have made a big deal of it.

--I wouldn't expect anything about the Rugeris in Cremona archives since they didn't live there. The only member who did was Giacinto, for about three years around 1700 (1698-1701 or so?) That's a reminder that you can say anything you want on a label but that doesn't mean it's true. The shop was in a small town outside of Cremona and the jurisdiction of its trade and legal organizations, which is what you would do, too, if you were faking Amatis.

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3 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

A couple of comments regarding the Strad-Rugeri connection:

--I don't think Charles Beare is in the habit of saying things he doesn't fully understand to the necessary depth, so I can't imagine him speculating in print about that connection without evidence. You wouldn't want it any other way.

--Carlo Chiesa and Duane Rosengard spent some years reading every piece of archival paper in Cremona looking for violin maker names, and then spread that search to other cities. If there's something there, it's a good guess that it's already been found. I'll guess that if they'd found something juicy, they'd have made a big deal of it.

--I wouldn't expect anything about the Rugeris in Cremona archives since they didn't live there. The only member who did was Giacinto, for about three years around 1700 (1698-1701 or so?) That's a reminder that you can say anything you want on a label but that doesn't mean it's true. The shop was in a small town outside of Cremona and the jurisdiction of its trade and legal organizations, which is what you would do, too, if you were faking Amatis.

So far the only places we know where F. Rugeri resided are in the parishes of San Bernardo and San Sebastiano, next to San Sigismundo Convent.

The city of Cremona is the administrative seat for the province of Cremona.  Both of the above parishes are in the province of Cremona.  Then separately there is the Cremonese ecclesiastical (diocese) jurisdiction, which spans some 200 parishes, including some outside of the province of Cremona.

So when Mr. Youngman's correspondence mentions "in the archives of Cremona" he might not be referring to the "city-state" archive located in the city.

We have evidence that Nicolo Amati was the godfather to Francesco Rugeri's son Giacinto (who died a few months after his birth, not the subsequent Giacinto who died in his thirties).

Widhalm made several applications to return to Vienna starting around 1770, but isn't it curious that the (first) publications of such documents were made only 10 or so years ago?  I've already mentioned that Dr. Rita Steblin was sitting on this find for quite some time, and the reasons for (late) publication had nothing whatsoever to do with any possible controversy.  Completely mundane.  And there are many more eyeballs on the Viennese archives than the Cremonese.

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On 10/14/2021 at 6:10 AM, BassClef said:

Are these “tool marks” or tool mark mistakes on the recently posted Scroll on a violin with an Azzola label?

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/349978-luigi-azzola-violin-1916/

6385AC6C-D6E6-4A50-8A8D-B489C82B1E35.jpeg

32699DDF-3699-4D7D-9BF8-1E17740EDFBF.jpeg

Respected forum member https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/profile/87385-alexander-james-stew/

was kind enough to share additional images of his violin labeled Azzola 1916. I’m attaching a few more with close crops added. Are these all saw marks? What can be said about this work? Is it showing the hand of the maker? Showing rough work? Mistakes? Thank you in advance for your analysis. I now understand that nobody posting here knows their Pre-Fag. Azz. from their elbow, but maybe you can shed some light on the marks shown here.

66E7F500-1391-4A27-B5AA-C0963C6F37D8.jpeg

D4C5CFED-3D19-435B-A858-92A55AC64CCD.jpeg

541213B6-84DB-4C55-8E03-C16336A5DB2E.jpeg

D8E142F1-4EC0-4743-BBD3-FE477E0B5024.jpeg

CD6363BA-9297-43DD-9475-5B31C8F52155.jpeg

A8FDC438-31A0-4D47-BBDA-242C220B16E0.jpeg

B5D7B7A1-EDF7-4538-8DF5-FF16984F2F07.jpeg

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41 minutes ago, BassClef said:

Respected forum member https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/profile/87385-alexander-james-stew/

was kind enough to share additional images of his violin labeled Azzola 1916. I’m attaching a few more with close crops added. Are these all saw marks? What can be said about this work? Is it showing the hand of the maker? Showing rough work? Mistakes? Thank you in advance for your analysis. I now understand that nobody posting here knows their Pre-Fag. Azz. from their elbow, but maybe you can shed some light on the marks shown here.

A8FDC438-31A0-4D47-BBDA-242C220B16E0.jpeg

 

The sawtooth steps on the f are definitely left by a knife.

As for the scroll, if the marks you say are these, they may be smearing of the ink, which may have entered the marks left by a tool (file or knife) but more probably may be a simple absorption of the ink due to insufficient insulation of the wood before applying it. They can't be saw marks, because they are on the inside of the chamfer on the peg box wall, and I think no one is so sloppy as to do the chamfer with a saw.

More than mistakes or tool marks, I would call it sloppy work:)

1604787171_scrollinksmear.jpeg.963513baaa01da0f477077f2de3dc541.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

The sawtooth steps on the f are definitely left by a knife.

As for the scroll, if the marks you say are these, they may be smearing of the ink, which may have entered the marks left by a tool (file or knife) but more probably may be a simple absorption of the ink due to insufficient insulation of the wood before applying it. They can't be saw marks, because they are on the inside of the chamfer on the peg box wall, and I think no one is so sloppy as to do the chamfer with a saw.

More than mistakes or tool marks, I would call it sloppy work:)

1604787171_scrollinksmear.jpeg.963513baaa01da0f477077f2de3dc541.jpeg

Thank you! And the marks on the c bout? Looks the same as the others and not something left by contact with a bow.

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35 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Oh my! That will make everyone here oh so motivated to assist you. :lol:

 

If you’re not having fun, there are many other posts you can make unhelpful comments on. If you’ve been following the Azzola thread everyone seems to be in consensus that they don’t know what a 1916 Azzola would look like because of the lack of reference instruments from that period. Thankfully Mr Davide Sora and others are still secure enough in themselves to continue to add value to this thread despite any silliness and jokes that are being made.

 

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45 minutes ago, BassClef said:

If you’ve been following the Azzola thread...

I have not.

47 minutes ago, BassClef said:

If you’re not having fun, there are many other posts you can make unhelpful comments on.

Some day, when you have gained more learning and experience, you may start to change your mind about which comments are most helpful. ;)

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59 minutes ago, BassClef said:

Thankfully Mr Davide Sora and others are still secure enough in themselves to continue to add value to this thread despite any silliness and jokes that are being made.

So now you are some sort of amateur psychologist? :lol:

Yup, Sora puts up some really good stuff.

Silliness and jokes have been at the heart of the high-level fiddle profession for at least the last two generations (the only ones with which I am personally familiar). If your fantasy is that it be more of a "starched underpants" sort of thing, there are those who will indulge you. ;)

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6 minutes ago, BassClef said:

I considered that but the marks seem too sharp in my experience to have come from a bow hitting it. 

Most of the edges on bow frogs are rather sharp, don't you think?

With enough continuing bow-strikes,  these will start to meld into something more contiguous, and less individual-bow-strike defined.

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On 10/14/2021 at 12:28 PM, Hempel said:

So far the only places we know where F. Rugeri resided are in the parishes of San Bernardo and San Sebastiano, next to San Sigismundo Convent.

The city of Cremona is the administrative seat for the province of Cremona.  Both of the above parishes are in the province of Cremona.  Then separately there is the Cremonese ecclesiastical (diocese) jurisdiction, which spans some 200 parishes, including some outside of the province of Cremona.

So when Mr. Youngman's correspondence mentions "in the archives of Cremona" he might not be referring to the "city-state" archive located in the city.

We have evidence that Nicolo Amati was the godfather to Francesco Rugeri's son Giacinto (who died a few months after his birth, not the subsequent Giacinto who died in his thirties).

Widhalm made several applications to return to Vienna starting around 1770, but isn't it curious that the (first) publications of such documents were made only 10 or so years ago?  I've already mentioned that Dr. Rita Steblin was sitting on this find for quite some time, and the reasons for (late) publication had nothing whatsoever to do with any possible controversy.  Completely mundane.  And there are many more eyeballs on the Viennese archives than the Cremonese.

I did contact Beare violins as you suggested someone do and my response was that extensive research has been done and nothing has come to light.

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