Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Tool marks on violins/cellos/violas - style, tradition, or mistakes?


BassClef
 Share

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

...had he found it to be credible and verifiable.

Though Stradivaris apprenticeship with Francesco Rugeri doesn’t sound completely absurd, in fact it would make sense in some way, I find it utterly strange that this topic concerning THE most famous violin maker in the world hasn’t been followed up. 

My understanding is that Mr. Beare in those days was much too busy and understandable enough as the world leading expert couldn’t have stepped out without having seen with his own eyes the irrefutable proof of evidence. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 365
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 10/7/2021 at 6:34 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

Though Stradivaris apprenticeship with Francesco Rugeri doesn’t sound completely absurd, in fact it would make sense in some way, I find it utterly strange that this topic concerning THE most famous violin maker in the world hasn’t been followed up. 

My understanding is that Mr. Beare in those days was much too busy and understandable enough as the world leading expert couldn’t have stepped out without having seen with his own eyes the irrefutable proof of evidence. 

There is no need to speculate why no progress has been made on this front for 55 years.  It's also pointless wondering why someone may or may not be sitting on any data, leaving them unpublished.  When I wrote Dr. Rita Steblin, the musicologist, regarding some of my Austrian archival discoveries, she told me she had to physically travel to Horn Austria to look for evidence of Widhalm's birth.  Upon arrival there she was told the records had moved to St. Poelten.  She sat on Widhalm's baptism find for years.   

"If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain."  Don't expect the planets to alter their trajectories for you.

If you are in a position to help, I'd be surprised if Beare would refuse your help to find Strad apprenticeship evidence in the archives.  Like I stated earlier, one of the problems is not enough eyeballs.  I'm certain Beare would give you some appropriate pointers on where to start too if you write him.

The part you got to relinquish is your sense of entitlement, specifically expecting someone to do the heavy lifting.  Even if you aren't able to find anything you can say you looked at volumes X, Y and Z at archives A, B, and C.  Someone else can come along later and search archives D, E, and F, avoiding duplication of effort.  That's just how progress gets made.  Even a comprehensive search found NO evidence that Strad apprenticed with Rugeri, you will at least be able to provide evidence of absence. 

Right now you're conflating the absence of evidence with evidence of absence.  Those are two distinctly different things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are some interesting tool marks on a violin purported to be by L. Kaplan lifted from this thread, the post being from today: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/249946-american-maker-ladislav-kaplan/&do=findComment&comment=949925

What’s going on here, we’re the tool marks filled in on the right side of the violin as shown in the photo?

C244255F-DCAE-4786-9FCF-4A8C952E2EE4.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, BassClef said:

Here are some interesting tool marks on a violin purported to be by L. Kaplan lifted from this thread, the post being from today: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/249946-american-maker-ladislav-kaplan/&do=findComment&comment=949925

What’s going on here, we’re the tool marks filled in on the right side of the violin as shown in the photo?

C244255F-DCAE-4786-9FCF-4A8C952E2EE4.png

I'm sorry, I don't understand, what are the toolmarks you are referring to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand, what are the toolmarks you are referring to?

Just under the purfling. The marks on the right hand plate just under the purfling seem to somewhat match the left side but look to have been filled in? What are we looking at?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BassClef said:

Just under the purfling. The marks on the right hand plate just under the purfling seem to somewhat match the left side but look to have been filled in? What are we looking at?

Not much can be understood, perhaps it depends on the low quality of the photo, I thought it was a reflection of the light.:rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, BassClef said:

Nice, I still see marks on the Kaplan in the same area. Are these tool marks?

F3491104-0003-4FA0-AAE0-7F297F6C2C55.png

In my opinion no, to my eyes is a simple purfling channel edge chipping, quite easy to get if you are not careful when hollowing it after tracing and cutting it in the already made fluting channel, and not in the flat full thickness edge platform. Thus, even if caused by a careless use of the "bedano" (the little chisel used for hollowing the purfling channel), it is only a consequence of poor use and not a real trace of the tool. In this case I would say that it is a mistake, not a toolmark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

In my opinion no, to my eyes is a simple purfling channel edge chipping, quite easy to get if you are not careful when hollowing it after tracing and cutting it in the already made fluting channel, and not in the flat full thickness edge platform. Thus, even if caused by a careless use of the "bedano" (the little chisel used for hollowing the purfling channel), it is only a consequence of poor use and not a real trace of the tool. In this case I would say that it is a mistake, not a toolmark.

:ph34r: I don't know why even bother!

In the context of Stradivari you have surpassed long time ago.

As you know I'm looking towards Amatis. How in the He..l  did they do it? Did they have time? that we don't have today or what?

Some of their details are unbelievable. AND it was over 450 years ago!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well this is all I have to do on a Saturday night, and doesn't that say something about my life. Just kidding this is fascinating. I have made a couple of Ukuleles and couple of Mountain Dulcimers so far but the violin craft is totally new to me. I play but want to build one someday.

Two more pics for BassClef with different lighting from the top and the bottom of the back. I went around with a loupe and these are the two biggest spots. There is nothing on the front. I will say this instrument is pretty well used. The fingerboard is grooved deeply along the string paths and particularly under the third finger of the A and D strings. This guy has been around the block and has the wear to show it.

20211009_181445.jpg

20211009_181553.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Gary M said:

Well this is all I have to do on a Saturday night, and doesn't that say something about my life. Just kidding this is fascinating. I have made a couple of Ukuleles and couple of Mountain Dulcimers so far but the violin craft is totally new to me. I play but want to build one someday.

Two more pics for BassClef with different lighting from the top and the bottom of the back. I went around with a loupe and these are the two biggest spots. There is nothing on the front. I will say this instrument is pretty well used. The fingerboard is grooved deeply along the string paths and particularly under the third finger of the A and D strings. This guy has been around the block and has the wear to show it.

20211009_181445.jpg

20211009_181553.jpg

Calling these tool marks is quite a stretch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, BassClef said:

Davide Sora said they were marks left by the careless use of a tool. So again we are splitting hairs and creating definitions, which I respect coming from Mr. Sora.

Not to be a hair splitter, but for me a tool mark is a mark left by the tool, which allows you to identify it. For example, in the case of purfling, a tool mark would be a visible line that identifies a cut of the knife that has gone off-path  (a tool mark originating from a mistake) or a purfling tool mark that goes beyond the purfling tip (not a real mistake, but due to the fact that the subsequent working did not remove it as expected, for whatever reason). The chipping on the edge of the purfling channel is only a consequence of some action, not the mark of a tool, we can hypothesize based on our experience what was the cause and which tool caused it, but the causes could be other and caused by different tools or by different actions. The chipping on the edge of the purfling channel is only a consequence of some action, not the sign of a tool, we can hypothesize based on our experience what was the cause and which tool caused it, but the causes could be other and caused by different tools or by different actions. Of course, also in this case there may be marks left by mistakes, but they are clearly identifiable as they usually detract from the harmony of the general appearance, or are clearly disordered and an indication of little care in the work. Then there are scraper, gouges and fingerplanes marks on the archings, toothed planes marks on the ribs, and whatever else. Each of these could be seen as mistakes or simple marks of workmanship, it is not possible to establish a priori whether it should be considered an embellishment or a bad workmanship, since the aesthetic taste is not universal and certainly cannot be limited in the field of "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Not to be a hair splitter, but for me a tool mark is a mark left by the tool, which allows you to identify it. For example, in the case of purfling, a tool mark would be a visible line that identifies a cut of the knife that has gone off-path  (a tool mark originating from a mistake) or a purfling tool mark that goes beyond the purfling tip (not a real mistake, but due to the fact that the subsequent working did not remove it as expected, for whatever reason). The chipping on the edge of the purfling channel is only a consequence of some action, not the mark of a tool, we can hypothesize based on our experience what was the cause and which tool caused it, but the causes could be other and caused by different tools or by different actions. The chipping on the edge of the thread channel is only a consequence of some action, not the sign of a tool, we can hypothesize based on our experience what was the cause and which tool caused it, but the causes could be other and caused by different tools or by different actions. Of course, also in this case there may be marks left by mistakes, but they are clearly identifiable as they usually detract from the harmony of the general appearance, or are clearly disordered and an indication of little care in the work. Then there are scraper, gouges and fingerplanes marks on the archings, toothed planes marks on the ribs, and whatever else. Each of these could be seen as mistakes or simple marks of workmanship, it is not possible to establish a priori whether it should be considered an embellishment or a bad workmanship, since the aesthetic taste is not universal and certainly cannot be limited in the field of "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong".

Tremendous explanation, I m learning a lot from this. Much appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...