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Testore Violin Identity


Andrew Koufalas
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29 minutes ago, uncle duke said:

do we consider these guys fine or just ordinary?  

Your concern seems to be a very American one, where “Fine Violins” would seem to be a popular if meaningless cliché . Anyone can open a shop in some backwater there and call himself “Joe Bloggs (or whatever), Fine violins”, even if his product range comes from PRC with a sprinkling of Paesold or such

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I personally wouldn't put "fine" on a shop sign around here unless I had a few examples of the fine stuff.  PRC would be "good" in my book but a few Paesold examples may qualify as fine unless you say that they already do.

Though American I do pay attention when you have something going on or even when Ben has something going on. 

I once told Ben my grandparents street name in London - yes, I still qualify as English by blood along with 17% Irish.  Kinda like it here though.

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21 hours ago, martin swan said:

Dammit you're right - I forgot we weren't meant to look at it.

With regard to the right hand table corners extended by some hapless luthier - the rib corners behind seem to be extended to match, which is damnably cunning.

You don’t even bother looking at it! What a Amateuriss statement!

It appears that some of you guys got yourself a little group and prop each other up.

Also if you did “look” at it properly and unbiased.....which you did not......you will have noticed it is only the angle that the photo was taken that gave the appearance of of the ribs being extended. They have not.The corners were damaged and Yes the repairer did not do a good Job to get them symmetrical but it appears Sheldon is right by asking and doubting you people that evaluating an instrument is very tricky at the best of times!

Only excuse for you is you might be an amateur but if you are a so called “Expert”then that just reinforces what I And others are saying about Identifaction from Images!

Do not take this the wrong way my friend because like is a learning experience but this is so important for anyone whether it be about Violins or Paintings or China!

Have a look at “Fake or Fortune” on You Tube about the Turner paintings that were declared fake over 60 years ago.....now they are genuine!

Anyone can be wrong and also this platform gives an opportunity for anyone whether knowledgeable or not to interact and find out things!

It would be nice and acceptable if people can control their emotions and reply in a decent manner and not in tne way they treated Sheldon for asking a perfectly legitimate question!

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17 minutes ago, Andrew Koufalas said:

You don’t even bother looking at it! What a Amateuriss statement!

It appears that some of you guys got yourself a little group and prop each other up.

Also if you did “look” at it properly and unbiased.....which you did not......you will have noticed it is only the angle that the photo was taken that gave the appearance of of the ribs being extended. They have not.The corners were damaged and Yes the repairer did not do a good Job to get them symmetrical but it appears Sheldon is right by asking and doubting you people that evaluating an instrument is very tricky at the best of times!

Only excuse for you is you might be an amateur but if you are a so called “Expert”then that just reinforces what I And others are saying about Identifaction from Images!

Do not take this the wrong way my friend because like is a learning experience but this is so important for anyone whether it be about Violins or Paintings or China!

Have a look at “Fake or Fortune” on You Tube about the Turner paintings that were declared fake over 60 years ago.....now they are genuine!

Anyone can be wrong and also this platform gives an opportunity for anyone whether knowledgeable or not to interact and find out things!

It would be nice and acceptable if people can control their emotions and reply in a decent manner and not in tne way they treated Sheldon for asking a perfectly legitimate question!

You should just accept the fact that your violin is not a Testore, or even slightly similar and that this fact can be easily established by anyone who knows what a real Testore looks like, by looking “at the exterior of the instrument”

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12 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

You should just accept the fact that your violin is not a Testore, or even slightly similar and that this fact can be easily established by anyone who knows what a real Testore looks like, by looking “at the exterior of the instrument”

I didn’t say it was and it may not be....I don’t know but the amateurish answers and uncalled for arrogant attitudes towards the contributors here is uncalled for!

Also I repeat anyone can make a mistake and have made mistakes and that’s why I say that one should listen to others and make their own unbiased decisions.

When you or I or anyone and I’m not particularly concerned who they.....stop making mistakes.....then you have my undivided attention!

 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Koufalas said:

You don’t even bother looking at it! What a Amateuriss statement!

It appears that some of you guys got yourself a little group and prop each other up.

Also if you did “look” at it properly and unbiased.....which you did not......you will have noticed it is only the angle that the photo was taken that gave the appearance of of the ribs being extended. They have not.The corners were damaged and Yes the repairer did not do a good Job to get them symmetrical but it appears Sheldon is right by asking and doubting you people that evaluating an instrument is very tricky at the best of times!

Only excuse for you is you might be an amateur but if you are a so called “Expert”then that just reinforces what I And others are saying about Identifaction from Images!

Do not take this the wrong way my friend because like is a learning experience but this is so important for anyone whether it be about Violins or Paintings or China!

Have a look at “Fake or Fortune” on You Tube about the Turner paintings that were declared fake over 60 years ago.....now they are genuine!

Anyone can be wrong and also this platform gives an opportunity for anyone whether knowledgeable or not to interact and find out things!

It would be nice and acceptable if people can control their emotions and reply in a decent manner and not in tne way they treated Sheldon for asking a perfectly legitimate question!

Let me try to explain ...

Early on in this thread someone pointed out that one reason for thinking this violin amateur-made was the asymmetry of the corners. You countered by saying that the corners had been restored - your argument was therefore that the original outline was more symmetrical than the new corners made one think.

And yet if you look at the photo taken from the back, the new table corners barely cover the rib corners. So the asymmetry is a feature of the rib garland. 

If you have any genuine desire to know if your violin is an authentic Testore or not, I would spend a couple of hundred on getting a dendro - that should clear the matter up.

 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Koufalas said:

I didn’t say it was and it may not be....I don’t know but the amateurish answers and uncalled for arrogant attitudes towards the contributors here is uncalled for!

How have you assessed the answers to be amateurish?
Because they don’t fit with your pre determined idea of what the violin is?

 

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5 hours ago, Andrew Koufalas said:

Sheldon is right by asking and doubting you people that evaluating an instrument is very tricky at the best of times!

Whoa!!

Andrew, I appreciate your support, but I do not doubt anyone's expertise or ability to evaluate an instrument. ( My only issue was Jacob's attitude, which I profoundly regret.)  It turns out that a number of people have attributed ideas and positions to me that I never expressed. Be that as it may,  I regret being embroiled in this stuff and I ask that everyone will erase my name from your memory Otherwise I may have to change it.

Andrew, I thank you. Jacob, I salute you. To everyone else, may you live for a thousand years.

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57 minutes ago, Sheldon Weiner said:

Whoa!!

Andrew, I appreciate your support, but I do not doubt anyone's expertise or ability to evaluate an instrument. ( My only issue was Jacob's attitude, which I profoundly regret.)  It turns out that a number of people have attributed ideas and positions to me that I never expressed. Be that as it may,  I regret being embroiled in this stuff and I ask that everyone will erase my name from your memory Otherwise I may have to change it.

Andrew, I thank you. Jacob, I salute you. To everyone else, may you live for a thousand years.

I told the OP that he didn’t have a Testore, and explained why, and linked further reading for him to underline the point, should he be interested. The only impoliteness was the OP drawing the competence of various people who know what they are talking about into question, since he wanted to know which Testore it was, and not if it was one at all. I fail to see what difference it would make, were I to drop dead tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, Sheldon Weiner said:

Whoa!!

Andrew, I appreciate your support, but I do not doubt anyone's expertise or ability to evaluate an instrument. ( My only issue was Jacob's attitude, which I profoundly regret.)  It turns out that a number of people have attributed ideas and positions to me that I never expressed. Be that as it may,  I regret being embroiled in this stuff and I ask that everyone will erase my name from your memory Otherwise I may have to change it.

Andrew, I thank you. Jacob, I salute you. To everyone else, may you live for a thousand years.

Sheldon, I think you got caught in the crossfire ... I would gird your loins and stay with us! 

The OP, on the other hand, presented this violin on another thread as an example of Testore, and came over all Donald Trump when told by more knowledgeable people that his violin isn't genuine. He further co-opted you in support of his "we've all had enough of experts" argument.

In our business we all have to deal pretty regularly with people who don't like what we tell them, and who call into question the whole field of violin expertise. Fortunately for such people it's a brave new world, and there are now Facebook forums where they can keep asking until someone equally clueless gives them the answer they want.

 

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To answer Sheldon Weiner's question, as far as it's possible: It's indefinitely more easy to tell what a violin is not than what it is. It means, for those who have seen for example a lot of violins by the Testore family as part of their daily work (you can Jacob and Martin count into them, also many other members here) it is a matter of a glance to detect if an instrument shows the necessary features or doesn't. Same applies to a decision if it might be a possible Mittenwald, Markneukirchen, Mirecourt or Cremonese. If there aren't such features you can tell immediately that the violin isn't from a particular school. That's what we have seen here, therefore the answer to the OP question was "No Testore", and it was explained well and detailed why not.

If an instrument is showing features belonging to a certain maker or school of making, or if you aren't sure, or to confirm an assumption, one starts to examine internal and detailed constructional features. This is what happened here many times, one only needs to study the uncountable identification threads.

We just didn't even start to examine in detail what the OP violin might be positively because the poster obviously wasn't interested to find it out (other than it is Testore), and no I'm doubting that somebody would have the patience to do this after all. But if, it surely could be helpful to see more than the outside.

I hope this answers your request.

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I really enjoyed  the article by Hargreaves on Testore. [ Page 1 of this post]. It shows all the subtleties of how one identifies and understands an instrument, it is like detective work. What struck me was the three dimensionality of it, how the dark winter rings were encrusted in rosin, how the f holes had changed shape over time due to creep in the arching, etc.  True you cannot necessarily pick these things up from photographs, which are 2D representations of a 3D object. If you are not sure if your father’s instrument is a Testore take it to an expert who can examine it in person, and look in close detail. Brumcello did with her second cello, took it to Florian Leonhart. Which brings me to this observation, the huffiness and posturing in this post seems to be very erm <male>. I nearly bought a Jenny Bailly at auction recently just to find out what a female violin was like. Are there female luthiers out there and if not [so many] why not?

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10 minutes ago, Samuel Detached said:

If you are not sure if your father’s instrument is

I have my doubts that it is the OP's father's violin at all. Often people come here with stories about "violins in the family," when they are actually violins that they have recently purchased or are considering purchasing or spotted at an auction. 

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7 hours ago, Blank face said:

To answer Sheldon Weiner's question, as far as it's possible: It's indefinitely more easy to tell what a violin is not than what it is. It means, for those who have seen for example a lot of violins by the Testore family as part of their daily work (you can Jacob and Martin count into them, also many other members here) it is a matter of a glance to detect if an instrument shows the necessary features or doesn't. Same applies to a decision if it might be a possible Mittenwald, Markneukirchen, Mirecourt or Cremonese. If there aren't such features you can tell immediately that the violin isn't from a particular school. That's what we have seen here, therefore the answer to the OP question was "No Testore", and it was explained well and detailed why not.

If an instrument is showing features belonging to a certain maker or school of making, or if you aren't sure, or to confirm an assumption, one starts to examine internal and detailed constructional features. This is what happened here many times, one only needs to study the uncountable identification threads.

We just didn't even start to examine in detail what the OP violin might be positively because the poster obviously wasn't interested to find it out (other than it is Testore), and no I'm doubting that somebody would have the patience to do this after all. But if, it surely could be helpful to see more than the outside.

I hope this answers your request.

 

Thank you, Blank face

 

 

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On 8/15/2021 at 12:49 AM, Andrew Koufalas said:

Also I repeat anyone can make a mistake and have made mistakes and that’s why I say that one should listen to others and make their own unbiased decisions.

This is quite entertaining. At first I agreed with Jacob and Co., but after reading OP's arguments, how can this not be a real Testore?! After all, those "experts" judge a violin from only 3 pictures. Don't listen to them, Andrew. Trust your guts. Time to make your unbiased decision.

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2 hours ago, Ted_B said:

This is quite entertaining. At first I agreed with Jacob and Co., but after reading OP's arguments, how can this not be a real Testore?! After all, those "experts" judge a violin from only 3 pictures. Don't listen to them, Andrew. Trust your guts. Time to make your unbiased decision.

Let me guess. You have inherited a del G (from ebay), and don’t want some conceited bastard like me showing it his nasal hair:)

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