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Violin Bridge Carving On PANTOGRAPH - Thoughts?


Thomas Knight
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30 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I was wondering, what normal mortals who own a pantograph use their tool for?

Hi Jacob, mere mortals used them mostly for engraving. The large table would have brass letter stencils  and the downsize chosen so a plaque or such could be engraved on the smaller table. Those are usually 2D. This is larger and 3D so it can also replicate complex contours. Modern CNC machines have made these all but obsolete, yet in prototyping a one-off piece it can be faster than drawing the part in CAD, writing the code in CAM, and processing it.

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46 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I was wondering, what normal mortals who own a pantograph use their tool for?

Google "carving duplication".  You'll likely be surprised at the variety of machine designs and the varied uses for them.  :)

Incidentally, "normal mortals", as in those who can't be trusted with sharp tools and expensive wood to work on, seldom own router pantographs.   None of us here are "normal" to begin with.  :lol:

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Jacob and the other masters out there, was maple the choice for bridges because the wood was used for the major parts of the violin? Easy to find? The frequency response would be nearly identical if the bridge were cut from the same slab as the back. But curiously the soundppost is spruce/pine, and the top is also dissimilar wood and much softer. Other than tradition, have there been attempts in the past to try different woods for the bridges? Also, I see a completely different shape on a baroque instrument compared to modern. What caused the change? Additional string tension and projection angle that resulted in a change to the shape?

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  • Shelbow changed the title to Violin Bridge Carving On PANTOGRAPH - Thoughts?
51 minutes ago, Thomas Knight said:

Jacob and the other masters out there, was maple the choice for bridges because the wood was used for the major parts of the violin? Easy to find? The frequency response would be nearly identical if the bridge were cut from the same slab as the back. But curiously the soundppost is spruce/pine, and the top is also dissimilar wood and much softer. Other than tradition, have there been attempts in the past to try different woods for the bridges? Also, I see a completely different shape on a baroque instrument compared to modern. What caused the change? Additional string tension and projection angle that resulted in a change to the shape?

you are not answering my question

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56 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

 

Incidentally, "normal mortals", as in those who can't be trusted with sharp tools and expensive wood to work on, seldom own router pantographs.   None of us here are "normal" to begin with.  :lol:

I can’t remember the last time I cut myself working on violins, mind you I cut myself fairly badly yesterday trying to shut an umbrella. Am I a "normal mortal"?

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1 hour ago, Thomas Knight said:

Jacob and the other masters out there, was maple the choice for bridges because the wood was used for the major parts of the violin? Easy to find?

Probably because they preferred the results over other things they tried.

31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Other than tradition, have there been attempts in the past to try different woods for the bridges?

Yes, different woods and also other material.

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31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Am I a "normal mortal"?

Do "normal mortals" routinely flawlessly reconstruct violins from sacks of fragments, while also brilliantly lecturing the membership on obscure points of violin history and identification?  :)

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1 hour ago, Dave Slight said:

Pantograph sounds like a sales chart for underwear :D

 

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Whereas a pantygram involves sending and article of clothing.

I'll also note that there's a wide range of "not normal"  to choose from, here on MN.   [Drops an anti-ballistic dome over her glass house, and begins popping corn, in preparation for a lively discussion.]  ;) :lol:

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

 

I'll also note that there's a wide range of "not normal"  to choose from, here on MN.   [Drops an anti-ballistic dome over her glass house, and begins popping corn, in preparation for a lively discussion.]  ;) :lol:

I proudly include myself in the 'not normal' category :-)

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

you are not answering my question

Sorry, I find myself using my tools for producing heretical changes to instruments that should not be done. Thank goodness there are advisers here to throttle such decisions before too much damage occurs.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Probably because they preferred the results over other things they tried.

Yes, different woods and also other material.

OK--hundreds of years of trial and error would seem to indicate that other woods have been tried and proven less-than-ideal. These may seem to be rudimentary questions with obvious answers, but I was the annoying kid in class who always asked questions, and many were rather--um--stupid!!!

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5 hours ago, Thomas Knight said:

Hi David, I guess it is because I never like conventional thinking. It is hard to argue with 300+ years of bowed instruments and the experts that carry on that tradition. Maple is the standard bridge wood and has a Janka Hardness of 1450. Why was/is maple considered the only proper wood for a bridge? Ease of access? Maybe with treatments maple can achieve Janka 1550. My mind says why not try unconventional woods? What happens if we go even harder to rosewood or bamboo? Maybe a different wood will have greater transmittal of frequencies with certain instruments. Maybe a softer wood is better in some cases.

As a former golf pro I worked with building clubs and the shafts were grouped into 3 categories by how much they flexed on a scale with a weight at the tip and the handle end held securely. Then in the early 80's a researcher discovered frequency testing and flex categories jumped in number. Aluminum shafts, fiberglass shafts, titanium shafts, etc were tried. Then composites were developed and can isolate certain frequencies and improve response to certain frequencies that you 'feel' when hitting a golf ball. At the pro level golf is 95% sensory.

I am not a great violinist but was classically trained as a violist and can hear huge differences between two bridges, two soundposts, strings, tailpieces, and within adjustments of all of those. Tailgut lengths, achieving the proper length ratios, etc. It seems there is room for improvement, especially on student level instruments.

I'm being sarcastic.  I do understand that many people come to violin making excatly this way.

I understand the actual motive.  But, it still baffles me that people actuslly follow this impulse instead of letting the thought pass through and then out of the mind without turning into action.

If a university near you has many years collection of Strad magazine, it makes for amusing reading.  You can see over a hundred years of attempts to innovate around the  violin.  But, it remains a very established classical musical icon. 

Think of it like an historic variety of wine that has become cherished and classic. You can't satisfy the market for that cherished wine by making varieties.  But then down market there's a demand for any cheap buzz.  This crowd will buy any novel variety you can dream up.  But they also don't care.

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2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 

I'll also note that there's a wide range of "not normal"  to choose from, here on MN.   [Drops an anti-ballistic dome over her glass house, and begins popping corn, in preparation for a lively discussion.]  ;) :lol:

Why be normal?

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2 minutes ago, chiaroscuro_violins said:

Better to ask than to remain ignorant. 

I do believe sycamore has been used with success, but then again it's not that different from maple, is it?  

There was a time Aubert pushed it. I think it was their luxe bridge (not the deluxe).
Never seen one for years, and I don't think anyone uses them now.

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On 8/2/2021 at 9:57 AM, chiaroscuro_violins said:

Better to ask than to remain ignorant. 

I do believe sycamore has been used with success, but then again it's not that different from maple, is it?  

If you're English. Then also pine and spruce become interchangeably equivalent.

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On 8/2/2021 at 9:23 AM, Thomas Knight said:

OK--hundreds of years of trial and error would seem to indicate that other woods have been tried and proven less-than-ideal. These may seem to be rudimentary questions with obvious answers, but I was the annoying kid in class who always asked questions, and many were rather--um--stupid!!!

http://jessupegoldastini.com/

take a look at clients, then look at instruments and then look at "other projects". in that order...in the other projects section you will see many instruments with many "alternate" material /design bridges as well as the violins as a whole....this is all in essence "old work" and old photos...there has been much that has come after all that, I think I have improved since then.

I do not display pictures of my work any more in general, and at the moment I am in hiatus as I help a dear friend through the process of dying from dementia, but I think you will see things that are very different both materials and design wise.

I only point out the clients list to show that I achieved some level of success doing things dramatically different than everyone else....as you have in the past and aspire to now.

something I was told for about three years "it'll never work" , massive amounts of discouragement, negativity and just general "you suck" , I still get lots of that, but you know what, I don't give a crap, because barring a few of the greats around here, many people here and all over the "instrument making communities" are no talent , unimaginative negative people. They don't have 3 grammy winners as clients {Lili has since won a grammy after the catfiddle} they don't have the head professor of a major university's music dept. as a client and friend, they don't have the most famous guitar maker in the world saying nice things about their work

{"I think that the Acoustic Guitar Forum is mostly a good thing; it gives individuals a chance to show off their latest work and get comments and information and support.  I particularly am impressed by the postings such as one that I saw by JESSUPE (Jessupe Goldastini).  What a painstakingly original and unique piece of work he’s accomplished!" Ervin Somogyi}

They don't have videos of Ozcan Ulucan, Maxim Vengerovs good friend and one of the few people he would share the stage with playing one of their violins, particularly a weird ass violin like mine, nope none of that.

I do like it when someone like you comes along because it gives me a chance to recount my story to others like yourself who desire their own circle outside of the box, because the basic synopsis upsets my detractors 

but I tell you there is never going to be a shortage of people who tell you , you can't do it...and I'm certainly not going to be the one to discourage you from trying.

I think experimenting with alternate materials and shapes is great, I just don't know about the mass production of them using that machine, that's my only negative thoughts, and it is just an opinion, but hey man , prove us wrong, John Henry did die in the end after all, but he died trying, and he didn't have the machine like you do.

And well you may be annoying but I pretty sure most people around here would consider me to be the most annoying, so your going to have to try a lot harder if your going to knock me off the hill , and we ain't even got to the stupid part yet.

 

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8 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

http://jessupegoldastini.com/

take a look at clients, then look at instruments and then look at "other projects". in that order...in the other projects section you will see many instruments with many "alternate" material /design bridges as well as the violins as a whole....this is all in essence "old work" and old photos...there has been much that has come after all that, I think I have improved since then.

I do not display pictures of my work any more in general, and at the moment I am in hiatus as I help a dear friend through the process of dying from dementia, but I think you will see things that are very different both materials and design wise.

I only point out the clients list to show that I achieved some level of success doing things dramatically different than everyone else....as you have in the past and aspire to now.

something I was told for about three years "it'll never work" , massive amounts of discouragement, negativity and just general "you suck" , I still get lots of that, but you know what, I don't give a crap, because barring a few of the greats around here, many people here and all over the "instrument making communities" are no talent , unimaginative negative people. They don't have 3 grammy winners as clients {Lili has since won a grammy after the catfiddle} they don't have the head professor of a major university's music dept. as a client and friend, they don't have the most famous guitar maker in the world saying nice things about their work

{"I think that the Acoustic Guitar Forum is mostly a good thing; it gives individuals a chance to show off their latest work and get comments and information and support.  I particularly am impressed by the postings such as one that I saw by JESSUPE (Jessupe Goldastini).  What a painstakingly original and unique piece of work he’s accomplished!" Ervin Somogyi}

They don't have videos of Ozcan Ulucan, Maxim Vengerovs good friend and one of the few people he would share the stage with playing one of their violins, particularly a weird ass violin like mine, nope none of that.

I do like it when someone like you comes along because it gives me a chance to recount my story to others like yourself who desire their own circle outside of the box, because the basic synopsis upsets my detractors 

but I tell you there is never going to be a shortage of people who tell you , you can't do it...and I'm certainly not going to be the one to discourage you from trying.

I think experimenting with alternate materials and shapes is great, I just don't know about the mass production of them using that machine, that's my only negative thoughts, and it is just an opinion, but hey man , prove us wrong, John Henry did die in the end after all, but he died trying, and he didn't have the machine like you do.

And well you may be annoying but I pretty sure most people around here would consider me to be the most annoying, so your going to have to a lot harder if your going to knock me off the hill , and we ain't even got to the stupid part yet.

 

I am awestruck. Fantastic work. I like them--a lot. I can say that my experience in the automotive world was similar to yours in the violin world. Look up my name and 'superchargers' and you will find page after page of good articles and one phony bad one written by someone who never actually bought anything from me. I was among the leading R&D companies in the world with turbochargers and superchargers when I developed and released my invention in '03. The industry laughed and ridiculed me. I didn't care because I knew it worked. When major car companies and the F1 series licensed my patents and numerous magazines tested and wrote about my products the criticism finally died down. My patent expired last year but I changed the thinking of the engineering world and my inventions are accepted current technology. That is why when someone on this forum is critical or supportive of an idea or process I embrace it. The more I know the better.

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5 hours ago, Thomas Knight said:

I am awestruck. Fantastic work. I like them--a lot. I can say that my experience in the automotive world was similar to yours in the violin world. Look up my name and 'superchargers' and you will find page after page of good articles and one phony bad one written by someone who never actually bought anything from me. I was among the leading R&D companies in the world with turbochargers and superchargers when I developed and released my invention in '03. The industry laughed and ridiculed me. I didn't care because I knew it worked. When major car companies and the F1 series licensed my patents and numerous magazines tested and wrote about my products the criticism finally died down. My patent expired last year but I changed the thinking of the engineering world and my inventions are accepted current technology. That is why when someone on this forum is critical or supportive of an idea or process I embrace it. The more I know the better.

Well I will say that hands down this is the best group and administration related to people who have interest in string instruments in the entire world and that it is a great place to learn things....I am greatly in debt to all the contributors here and I could never have done anything that I have done with out them.

There is lots of in fighting, political, ideological divisions {which we try to never discuss, but creeps in every now and then} and all those sorts of things that go on in life , but all in all most people here are respectful of our differences and use this as a mass data dump for everything "strings" 

Thanks for the kind words and I wish you luck in your endeavors and I hope you continue to contribute ,and ah' ya, that Thomas Knight, oh I see!, awesome dude, One of these days I'll pick your brain about my cooper S, I've known about your stuff for years and well crap your like a genuine Smokey Eunch and it's a real pleasure to talk with you!

D. Burgess , is a real gear head to, you'll fit in great here!

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14 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Uh oh, I don't think Smokey Yunick is going to be happy about that. ;)

Oh come on he's dead he doesn't know he's been chopped and channeled :lol:, thank you for the correction Mr. Burgess... "I didn't know he sang soprano? " 

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