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Unstamped Nürnberger violin bow


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14 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Dealers who are registered for VAT, who have shops, staff, heavy rentals, and who pay business rates and corporation tax etc etc have a habit of getting annoyed with amateur or hobby dealers with other principal incomes who don't need to make a significant profit.

For most violin shops, selling new Brazilian bows or modern Chinese violins at big mark-ups is what keeps the lights on.

Alex, I think you need to understand all this - it's the reason why many of the comments on your threads are a bit passive aggressive. All the more so since your principal motivation for posting here is to find a name for a bow - this inevitably adds value. So basically you are asking people whose business you are undermining to help you to add value to your own stock.

I don't say this to be challenging - every orchestra has someone who is mad about bows and just happens to have a few in his case. It's a fact of life. But it can be very frustrating for dealers to lose what might be a very important sale to someone who doesn't need to charge a profit and who's just selling for the thrill of it ...

Martin, Mr. Stewart will know from the cradle, all he needs to know about “mark ups”

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

Alex, I think you need to understand all this - it's the reason why many of the comments on your threads are a bit passive aggressive. All the more so since your principal motivation for posting here is to find a name for a bow - this inevitably adds value. So basically you are asking people whose business you are undermining to help you to add value to your own stock.

Dear Martin,

I understand all that you are saying, but I can guarantee also that I am not trying to undermine anybody. I am genuinely fascinated with good German bows; named or not. Some I keep for myself others I get for my colleagues. I am not doing this out of a purely financial gain. The whole business of how a good bow can improve a fiddle also really fascinates me.The FRITZ MEINEL bow  for example I wanted to share simply out of pride to be able to play on such a beautiful bow from a maker that perhaps many do not know. These threads and conversations can sometimes lead off onto a wrong tangent. Akin to a wrong turning o the map. Suddenly we find the destination is not the one we intended....

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3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Martin, Mr. Stewart will know from the cradle, all he needs to know about “mark ups”

Dear Jacob,

I do not think that is a pleasant remark to make and I do think you should show some more respect to those who have passed on. " Wally Stewart" as you call him made a very valuable contribution with his translation of the HAMMA book from German to english...and was  very respected amongst the violin making circles in Cremona... Morassi, Conia, Portanti, Scrollavezza just to name a few...

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39 minutes ago, Alexander James Stew said:
 

Dear Jacob,

I do not think that is a pleasant remark to make and I do think you should show some more respect to those who have passed on. " Wally Stewart" as you call him made a very valuable contribution with his translation of the HAMMA book from German to english...and was  very respected amongst the violin making circles in Cremona... Morassi, Conia, Portanti, Scrollavezza just to name a few...

It has been, for centuries, the hypocritical polemic of the Stubenhändler (or “hobby dealer” as Martin put it) to rail against registered tax paying businesses , that they would charge a profit, as if the Stubenhändler wouldn’t

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Getting far afield of the original thread but thought a comment on the "hobby dealer" or "player dealer" as they are known in the States is worthwhile.

With no offense meant to any one I think it is important that people understand that these kind of dealers do in fact undermine the professional dealers who make their living making, selling or repairing instruments. If some one does not need to pay rent, repair what they sell or guarantee authenticity of their merchandise they can obviously charge less than some one with a brick and mortar shop who does all of these. Many small time dealers think that they are not really competing with the larger shops but fail to realize that they are only one of many and when put together the effect of the player dealers is substantial. Furthermore they are essentially resting on the backs of the professional shops because ultimately their customers will ask me or one of my colleagues to repair or service their instrument and put us in a position where we must refuse someone who may be influential in the community or do  repairs on which we either lose money or must charge more than the clients expect further advancing the impression that the player dealer is less expensive to do business with while the professional is a price gouger. Most violin makers are far better off spending their time working on their own instruments where they not only pay themselves for their time but also have a chance of making a dealers mark up as opposed to selling their time by the hour.    

It is admirable that such a dealer is making an effort to at least guarantee the authenticity of what they sell but they should still understand that many professionals will be unwilling to work against their own interest by helping them.

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It's very true that there exist a plethora of anonymous German bows out there especially between the 2 world wars but nevertheless I love the buzz of discovery when an expert is able to put a name to one..

Believe it or not that's my real motivation....although what Martin said is very true. It is much easier to value a confirmed named bow. However the financial aspect it is not my principal motivation . I simply love the voyage of discovery...

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17 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

ultimately their customers will ask me or one of my colleagues to repair or service their instrument and put us in a position where we must refuse someone who may be influential in the community or do  repairs on which we either lose money or must charge more than the clients expect further advancing the impression that the player dealer is less expensive to do business with while the professional is a price gouger.

Respectfully, I don't understand why a luthier would refuse to work on an instrument solely because it was not purchased at their shop. I understand if they already have too much work and want to give their instrument purchasers first priority, but, for example, lots of people move or travel away from the place they purchased their instrument and still need repair and maintenance services.

I also understand that some people don't understand that repairing and maintaining instruments by a skilled luthier is expensive, but there is no reason to cut rates because of their lack of understanding. Post your hourly rates and the price of routine repairs in the shop.

 

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18 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Any reputable violin shop is going to need to mark up the price from what they payed for it at least 100%, that's why there's wholesale and there's retail, there's no other way to stay in business, what some people dont seem to understand is the price of a bow involves what is paid for it, something for the rent, something for any advertising, something for any repairs or maintenance the bow needs, ,something to pay the taxes and last but not least something to put food in the belly of the poor sap that's trying to sell it, then you have to figure it may sit on the shelf for several years before any of those bills are paid, so no, by the sound of it your Portuguese dealers selling quality Brazilian bows are only crooks if they're buying bows for full retail then selling them for two or three times retail,

the crooks are the ones selling garden variety tradebows as being made by such and such famous maker for more than they are actually worth, it doesn't sound like this is what you are doing but its a trap one can easily fall into, its very easy to value something as being worth more than it actually is if you're not a real expert. IMHO there's nothing wrong with selling something for less than its worth, but if you start selling things for more than an expert would appraise them at, that's getting pretty crooked, not that there isn't a lot of that going on.

That happens a lot, it happens so much that people like Alexander and me are rare. It is incredibly easy to take advantage of your own students because they trust you, and it is incredibly easy to take advantage of the inexperienced, the uneducated, the unaware. One reason my dear friend close to his shop was because he couldn’t compare with the Dishonest.

Just two days ago one of my friends called me lamenting a cello that her student had bought, that had, within just a couple of weeks, Developed not one but two terrible wolfs. They had complained to the shop and, at least as of two days ago, the shop was happy to adjust the cello, but refused to trade it for a different instrument, even though it was just a Chinese factory instrument that duplicated a dozen others they have in the shop.

I have Never misrepresented a bow or tried to get full retail. I’m not even sure what full retail might be for an excellent quality unknown early 1900s silver mounted German bow.

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17 hours ago, martin swan said:

But it can be very frustrating for dealers to lose what might be a very important sale to someone who doesn't need to charge a profit and who's just selling for the thrill of it

Ooops. That probably applies to me as well, but in my defense, in my part of North Texas there is not one single dealer such as you, who offers higher quality stuff for sale. There are three fairly large shops that Cater To the student clientele, and sell Chinese, and rarely German, student level instruments. There’s one other shop, extremely tiny, that has better quality stuff, but they have very few things in shop.

But if you want a good bow or a handmade violin buy a reputable maker, there isn’t a single shop within 180 miles of Dallas that can help you.

I’ve said this multiple times before, Martin if you were within driving distance, and you had a counter and a beer tap, I would visit you every day, And all my students would too.

But they wouldn’t drink.

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8 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I’ve said this multiple times before, Martin if you were within driving distance, and you had a counter and a beer tap, I would visit you every day, And all my students would too.

You'd certainly need to pay him very well for his time.

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