Unstamped Nürnberger violin bow

[Alexander James Stew]

Dear friends,

I fell for this bow, and plunged head first. Apparently it is a Nürnberger but is not stamped. I have not as yet consulted the " DEUTSCHE BOGENMACHER" in detail but any pointers out there would be most welcome. I have included a link below.Many thanks.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/d2rhFeJ9wSC9uamd6

[jacobsaunders]

4 minutes ago, Alexander James Stew said:

. Apparently it is a Nürnberger because but is not stamped.

That means it's one of the Nürnbergers does it?

[Alexander James Stew]

43 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

That means it's one of the Nürnbergers does it?

Dear Jacob.lol.....actually have no idea. After having looked through DEUTSCHE BOGENMACHER...there do seem to be some very striking resemblances between this bow and a bow by Phillip Nürnberger....cut of the head, white mother of pearl in the slide and eye, rather flat ferrule, button and some other aspects. But I am not an expert...I just fell for the general beauty and harmony of lines in the construction.....

Also apparently it plays like a dream which is fundamental for myself.

[GeorgeH]

2 hours ago, Alexander James Stew said:

I fell for this bow, and plunged head first.

Hello Alexander,

I am curious - what is the goal of your bow collecting? 

I don't mean to discourage you, because I like seeing pictures of your "finds" here and reading the comments about them.

Still, I wonder what your personal goals are. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I see comments like this from people who don't read the threads and just skim through them, As Alex has told us several times he's a principal violinist in a Portuguese symphony and he is acquiring bows for other musicians he knows

[Alexander James Stew]

7 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Hello Alexander,

I am curious - what is the goal of your bow collecting? 

I don't mean to discourage you, because I like seeing pictures of your "finds" here and reading the comments about them.

Still, I wonder what your personal goals are. 

Dear George,

I think its a mixture of things. I have always been fascinated with German bowmakers. I suppose it was my father ( Walter Stewart) who instilled this passion in me. I met as a young boy a lot of the German  bowmakers when with my father in Germany.

But primarily as I am a performer I am looking to try and readdress the balance as regards the conception that the French bows are the best to play with. The mâitre french archetiers and their tradition cannot be disputed, but there are some fabulous German makers and bows out there that play so very well and in my opinion are on anequal standing with their french counterparts. I also find it fascinating how a bow can completely transform an instrument.

I am also helping fellow professionals here in Portugal acquire  good solid bows that do not go through the roof price-wise.5 of our 1st violin section in the Portuguese Symphony Orchestra play on German bows that I have found.

Finally I would like to keep a select number for my own personal collection. I also love to share here bows that I found that are enigmatic to me. There are so many experts whose knowledge I find fascinating ...

[Alexander James Stew]

4 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I see comments like this from people who don't read the threads and just skim through them, As Alex has told us several times he's a principal violinist in a Portuguese symphony and he is acquiring bows for other musicians he knows

Yes that's one of the main reasons....

[GeorgeH]

2 minutes ago, Alexander James Stew said:

I think its a mixture of things.

Thanks, Alexander.

I agree regarding German bows. There are absolute masterpieces from German makers, even some unbranded and unattributable examples. 

I do enjoy your posts and pictures. I also appreciate the comments them from other MNers, despite that sometimes one does have to suffer "slings and arrows" gracefully. 

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, Alexander James Stew said:

 After having looked through DEUTSCHE BOGENMACHER...there do seem to be some very striking resemblances between this bow and a bow by Phillip Nürnberger....cut of the head, white mother of pearl in the slide and eye, rather flat ferrule, button and some other aspects.

Looking at the Phillip Paul Nurnberger in the book, I can't see any significant similarities. 

The published example has a head which hooks back somewhat whereas the back of your head seems straight, it has no "triangle" or upturn at the nose where yours has a significant one, and the face plate is largely straight where yours is gently curved. With the frog, your seller's photos aren't great, but it appears the thumb projection is significantly shorter than the end of the ferrule, where in the published example they are quite close in length.

All in all, I don't think one could say more than "possibly Nurnberger workshop" which is really not saying anything at all except that it's a nice-looking German bow. The button seems entirely generic, mother of pearl is not necessarily original, and almost all lesser German bows have flat ferrules ...

Which is not to say i don't like the look of the bow ... though I do find the back of the head a bit inconsistent.  On the shot pointing to the right it looks a bit irregular towards the base of the head, and for this reason alone I wouldn't be thinking the bow would necessarily have a "name".

[Alexander James Stew]

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Thanks, Alexander.

I agree regarding German bows. There are absolute masterpieces from German makers, even some unbranded and unattributable examples. 

I do enjoy your posts and pictures. I also appreciate the comments them from other MNers, despite that sometimes one does have to suffer "slings and arrows" gracefully. 

Very true... George....it's all in a good spirit.

[Alexander James Stew]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Looking at the Phillip Paul Nurnberger in the book, I can't see any significant similarities. 

The published example has a head which hooks back somewhat whereas the back of your head seems straight, it has no "triangle" or upturn at the nose where yours has a significant one, and the face plate is largely straight where yours is gently curved. With the frog, your seller's photos aren't great, but it appears the thumb projection is significantly shorter than the end of the ferrule, where in the published example they are quite close in length.

All in all, I don't think one could say more than "possibly Nurnberger workshop" which is really not saying anything at all except that it's a nice-looking German bow. The button seems entirely generic, mother of pearl is not necessarily original, and almost all lesser German bows have flat ferrules ...

Which is not to say i don't like the look of the bow ... though I do find the back of the head a bit inconsistent.  On the shot pointing to the right it looks a bit irregular towards the base of the head, and for this reason alone I wouldn't be thinking the bow would necessarily have a "name".

Many thanks Martin for your input. I sent some photos to Mathias Wohlleber....maybe he will shed some light on the matter....still don't have the bow in my hand but apparently it plays incredibly well. 59 g

[Alexander James Stew]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Looking at the Phillip Paul Nurnberger in the book, I can't see any significant similarities. 

The published example has a head which hooks back somewhat whereas the back of your head seems straight, it has no "triangle" or upturn at the nose where yours has a significant one, and the face plate is largely straight where yours is gently curved. With the frog, your seller's photos aren't great, but it appears the thumb projection is significantly shorter than the end of the ferrule, where in the published example they are quite close in length.

All in all, I don't think one could say more than "possibly Nurnberger workshop" which is really not saying anything at all except that it's a nice-looking German bow. The button seems entirely generic, mother of pearl is not necessarily original, and almost all lesser German bows have flat ferrules ...

Which is not to say i don't like the look of the bow ... though I do find the back of the head a bit inconsistent.  On the shot pointing to the right it looks a bit irregular towards the base of the head, and for this reason alone I wouldn't be thinking the bow would necessarily have a "name".

Actually Martin, on closer inspection I think my bow is closer to the next Nürnberger in the Deutsche Bogenmacher book. Carl Albert.It also appears to be based on the F X Tourte model. The rounded nose and slightly curved head-plate.Also quoting from the book, "Carl Nürnberger frequently used durable white mother of pearl for the slide and the eyes." which seems to be the case with my bow.

Both examples ( from the book and my own) have a two piece heel-plate and the liner secured with 2 pins.... There also seems to be a similarity between the yellowish-brown pernambuco....of both bows.

What do you think Martin? Food for thought? All the best

[martin swan]

I don't see Carl Albert here - look at the thumb projections of his frogs. Though yours does look slightly reshaped.

The slide on your bow doesn't look original because the angle doesn't fit the heel plate - or at least, you wouldn't see a kacky piece of workmanship like that on a Carl Albert. 

The proportions of your 3-piece button also don't look very like anything from Nurnberger, particularly Carl Albert.

But let's see what Mathias Wohlleber says, maybe he can pull a rabbit out of the hat for you!

If anything I get more of a Knopf-ish feeling from this bow, and I would be looking more at the makers who came through their shop ... though I'd be pretty surprised if you get a name for this one.

 

[jacobsaunders]

23 minutes ago, Alexander James Stew said:

 

What do you think Martin? Food for thought? All the best

You asked Martin, but I have told you my opinion already (here)

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/349088-fritz-meinel-master-german-bowmaker/&do=findComment&comment=939119

Bearing in mind the immense production of (also) unstamped very good bows and the fact that there were dozens of bow makers we don’t even know by name, never mind by signed works, it seems puerile to constantly get some unstamped Markneukirchen bow. and give it some random name. If there had been somebody called Fred Bloggs who spent his whole life in Markneukirchen making bows day after day, year after year, and we didn’t have a signed example to consult, you can’t possibly say that this (invented) Fred Bloggs couldn’t have made your bow neither a third person called Krautwaschl

[Alexander James Stew]

21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

You asked Martin, but I have told you my opinion already (here)

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/349088-fritz-meinel-master-german-bowmaker/&do=findComment&comment=939119

Bearing in mind the immense production of (also) unstamped very good bows and the fact that there were dozens of bow makers we don’t even know by name, never mind by signed works, it seems puerile to constantly get some unstamped Markneukirchen bow. and give it some random name. If there had been somebody called Fred Bloggs who spent his whole life in Markneukirchen making bows day after day, year after year, and we didn’t have a signed example to consult, you can’t possibly say that this (invented) Fred Bloggs couldn’t have made your bow neither a third person called Krautwaschl

Take a closer closer look Jacob please... " This is not " some unstamped Markneukirchen bow..." And just for the record Carl Albert Nürnberger made a number of unstamped bows based on the F X Tourte model. This bow has absolutely nothing to do with the last bow I posted which granted is a run of the mill silver mounted Markneukirchen violin bow from between the wars....This is not the case ... even you can see the difference I am sure. Anyway I am waiting on Mathias Wohlleber to give me his feedback or is he another " Fred Bloggs" in your opinion?

[Wood Butcher]

3 hours ago, Alexander James Stew said:

I am also helping fellow professionals here in Portugal acquire  good solid bows that do not go through the roof price-wise.5 of our 1st violin section in the Portuguese Symphony Orchestra play on German bows that I have found.

Are they not allowed to choose their own bows, just have to buy one from you?

[Alexander James Stew]

25 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Are they not allowed to choose their own bows, just have to buy one from you?

These are friends of mine Wood. I am able to find bows that are good and a fair price. Believe it or not I have been helping them not exploiting. What's more they come to me. And they are happy.

[Dwight Brown]

I have a very old friend in an orchestra in Portuguese orchestra. Her name is Nancy Fredricks. I’m not sure what city she is in. A violinist.

DLB

[Alexander James Stew]

1 hour ago, Dwight Brown said:

I have a very old friend in an orchestra in Portuguese orchestra. Her name is Nancy Fredricks. I’m not sure what city she is in. A violinist.

DLB

Nancy!! I know her. She plays in the Symphony Orchestra in Porto in the north of Portugal. We have worked together. Lovely lady!!!!

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, Dwight Brown said:

I have a very old friend in an orchestra in Portuguese orchestra. Her name is Nancy Fredricks. I’m not sure what city she is in. A violinist.

DLB

 

8 minutes ago, Alexander James Stew said:

Nancy!! I know her. She plays in the Symphony Orchestra in Porto in the north of Portugal. We have worked together. Lovely lady!!!!

Write urgently to Mrs. Friedricks and tell her that anonymous bows are by far best value for money

[Dwight Brown]

38 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

Write urgently to Mrs. Friedricks and tell her that anonymous bows are by far best value for money

So cool! We went to college together a long time ago at Ithaca College. I know how old we are and she doesn’t look it! She is a doll.

DLB

[Dwight Brown]

I have a bow like that I like. It is stamped but it was sold to me as just “a German bow” it is nice and it has a silver tip plate which for no good reason I rather like.

DLB

[Alexander James Stew]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

Write urgently to Mrs. Friedricks and tell her that anonymous bows are by far best value for money.

1 hour ago, Dwight Brown said:

I have a bow like that I like. It is stamped but it was sold to me as just “a German bow” it is nice and it has a silver tip plate which for no good reason I rather like.

DLB

Great!!!

[PhilipKT]

Alexander seems to do the same thing I do, and many people have asked me why over the years, so I think I can comfortably answer for both of us.

We enjoy kicking tires, we enjoy the thrill of discovery and learning about some thing worthwhile. I had never heard of Ludwig Closner, but one of my favorite bows came from his school( probably sourced anonymously from somewhere in Markneukirchen) 

Many of my colleagues don’t give a fig about instruments, And play whatever they think will get them the job. It’s amazing how little they know or care about their tools. They just play what they like.

I love the beauty of the instrument, the beauty of a well-made bow, Holding it, playing it, playing the same passage on 10 different bows. In the last couple of weeks I’ve gotten together with several of my colleagues to try out a couple of cellos for sale. we all brought our own cellos and bows and were trading bows back-and-forth, while playing cello quartets. The difference in sound on one cello between a particular well-worn Louis Bazin and a lovely Morgan Anderson was shocking. The clarity difference between a Gillet and a Fuchs and a Finkel was equally amazing. Such fun we had!

Of course I can’t afford to keep all this stuff, but I have lots of students and I just pass them on to my students at cost, or Sometimes I sell to colleagues or consign at a shop. I’m happy to break even though I’ve been burned often enough that I never will. 

But we look because it’s fun to look and to learn and to share.

The bows in my ready rack Frequently change, but my students play them all, and they learn from them all. Some of them will quit and forget but others will appreciate and remember, and that’s why we do it, I think.

Edited July 3, 2021 by PhilipKT
Typos

[Alexander James Stew]

5 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Alexander seems to do the same thing I do, and many people have asked me why over the years, so I think I can comfortably answer for both of us.

We enjoy kicking tires, we enjoy the thrill of discovery and learning about some thing worthwhile. I had never heard of Ludwig Closner, but one of my favorite bows came from his school( probably sourced anonymously from somewhere in Markneukirchen) 

Many of my colleagues don’t give a fig about instruments, And play whatever they think will get them the job. It’s amazing how little they know or care about their tools. They just play what they like.

I love the beauty of the instrument, the beauty of a well-made bow, Holding it, playing it, playing the same passage on 10 different bows. In the last couple of weeks I’ve gotten together with several of my colleagues to try out a couple of cellos for sale. we all brought our own cellos and bows and were trading bows back-and-forth, while playing cello quartets. The difference in sound on one cello between a particular well-worn Louis Bazin and a lovely Morgan Anderson was shocking. The clarity difference between a Gillet and a Fuchs and a Finkel was equally amazing. Such fun we had!

Of course I can’t afford to keep all this stuff, but I have lots of students and I just pass them on to my students at cost, or Sometimes I sell to colleagues or consign at a shop. I’m happy to break even though I’ve been burned often enough that I never will. 

But we look because it’s fun to look and to learn and to share.

The bows in my ready rack Frequently change, but my students play them all, and they learn from them all. Some of them will quit and forget but others will appreciate and remember, and that’s why we do it, I think.Some of them will quit and forget but others will appreciate and remember, and that’s why we do it, I think.

Definately am on the same page here Philip.