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Plate Weight


Shunyata
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On 7/1/2021 at 11:19 AM, chiaroscuro_violins said:

I know this isn't how burden of proof works.  I'm just genuinely curious why so many on this forum dismiss plate tuning, considering it is a low-tech, intuitive graduation technique that has been used by masters for a long time.  I'm all ears.  

In my younger years I was following plate tuning quite convinced and little by little I got doubts about certain ‘theories’ regarding what is considered to produce the perfect sound. All somehow started with the realization that varnish alters the tap tones making a controlled matching of top and back quite complicated. 
 

in the end all my frustrations in getting reliable results culminated in a test reducing a back plate from the outside. So if any matching would have the miraculous result one should be able to hear obvious sound changes by doing this. There were surprisingly little sound differences. 
 

So all the approaches trying to match modes of top and back became quite questionable to me. When tapping plates, what I still do, I rather try to get my ears on HOW it sounds. Long or short, muted or clear. 

Furthermore I found more radical changes in the overall sound properties by making changes on the rib structure. This puts for me an additional question mark on tap tones.

Not expecting anyone to agree, in the end every violin maker builds his own pet theory about sound.

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7 minutes ago, Anders Buen said:

No, but weighing it would be a good indicator.

Easier with the weight, as the moisture content (MC) comes straight off the weight variation if the dry weight is known. The wood both goes softer and becomes heavier with higher MC so it would probably be possible to monitor the humidity by the tap tones as well. 

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2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Is this before or after the varnish is applied?

Joseph Curtin's data (attached) on old Italian plates had the tapped tones and weights for obviously finished plates.

Tap_Routine_-_J_Curtins_Strad_article_06.pdf 925.49 kB · 16 downloads

Before.

Anyway, I am not too fussy about 2-3g. 
 

what matters to me most is a well thought through concept of calibrating sound relevant parameters in the process of building an instrument. All approaches using data in deciding what is good and bad (in a black and white scheme) end up in causing me some sort of headaches. 

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9 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

I've been thinking lately about leaving the lower bout G side a bit thicker to help suppress wolfs. 

I have been leaving the area just below the bass F relatively thick... but the rest of the bass lower bout is thin.  Works for me.

2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Do ou think we can make a humidity meter by measuring the tap tones of a violin plate?

1 hour ago, Anders Buen said:

No, but weighing it would be a good indicator.

1 hour ago, Anders Buen said:

Easier with the weight...

Easiest just looking at the humidity meter on the wall.

 

56 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

All approaches using data in deciding what is good and bad (in a black and white scheme) end up in causing me some sort of headaches. 

I too have tried to find some pattern in the data I have amassed to see what ends up good or bad, and have yet to find any.  As with most makers, I started out thinking taptones were important.  Gradually, with more experience and looking into the theory, that idea evaporated.  

I haven't tried much in the way of rib experiments, but they too would fall into the non-quantifiable set of things that I think currently matter: good wood*, good arching, reasonable graduations, reasonable weight, not too much varnish, and good setup.  Yes, I still record taptones, mostly because it's easy and common... and I might stop thinning a little early if they look radically low... but that's about it.

*although I have been measuring wood properties in more detail than probably any other maker, there still isn't anything that really has jumped out as a predictor of good or bad instrument results.  However, I'm sure that extremely dense, low-stiffness, and high damping would be a dud.

 

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6 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Do ou think we can make a humidity meter by measuring the tap tones of a violin plate?

 

6 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

I know we can, I do that all the time

 

5 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

No, but weighing it would be a good indicator.

 

5 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

Easier with the weight, as the moisture content (MC) comes straight off the weight variation if the dry weight is known. The wood both goes softer and becomes heavier with higher MC so it would probably be possible to monitor the humidity by the tap tones as well. 

Get the facts, before you say NO. It is straight forward linear (almost) Both weight and tap tones because I actually KNOW!

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6 hours ago, Shunyata said:

ADDITIONAL DATA:

Standard template for Strad Mediceo.

F holes are not cut yet.

Using a phone spectrometer app...

M1 95hz

M2 130hz

M5 275hz

Do you have an open fire, unless make one...

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Wait, don't tell me 

You haven't looked at my site and you figured out everything by your self just as I have! I have not seen your 2FL nor how to track modes nor anything, we are one of a kind figuring out everything by our selves

Engineering at the peak of individualism

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6 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Before.

Anyway, I am not too fussy about 2-3g. 
 

what matters to me most is a well thought through concept of calibrating sound relevant parameters in the process of building an instrument. All approaches using data in deciding what is good and bad (in a black and white scheme) end up in causing me some sort of headaches. 

what matters most is well thought through concept of calibrating sound relevant parameters in the process of building..... G and my G,,  come on!?

.... 

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8 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Do ou think we can make a humidity meter by measuring the tap tones of a violin plate?

 

8 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

I know we can, I do that all the time

Marty,

further more I have several 6x15x270 mm bass bar materials between 480-520hz (at 6% MC). Their frequencies vary with RH/MC pretty linear - all of them!

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18 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

 

 

 

Get the facts, before you say NO. It is straight forward linear (almost) Both weight and tap tones because I actually KNOW!

You sound very bombastic. Almost religious to the book of Patrick Kreit. A lot of things happen when a plate changes MC. One of them is that the shape may change, that influences the tap tones, in addition to the effect from the wood properties. A plate as a humidity meter is not very practical. Another method could be to measure dimensions at a high accuracy, although the shape shift may make that difficult too.

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17 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

 

Marty,

further more I have several 6x15x270 mm bass bar materials between 480-520hz (at 6% MC). Their frequencies vary with RH/MC pretty linear - all of them!

The MC and RH curve is not linear.

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On 7/2/2021 at 6:42 AM, Shunyata said:

ADDITIONAL DATA:

Standard template for Strad Mediceo.

F holes are not cut yet.

Using a phone spectrometer app...

M1 95hz

M2 130hz

M5 275hz

You said,,

73 gms,

F holes are not cut yet.

M1 95hz

M2 130hz

M5 275hz

The m1 95 shows a tiny bit of hope, has some stiffness yet, it could be in the 70's at this point.

These numbers are dropping fast, much lower than I usually see.

How tall is the arch?

Interesting to see what it will be.

When it's time to bar it, I like Davides style of bar.

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Another twist in trying to find meaning in plate weight is that total plate combines edge, channel, and central arched areas.

But the roles of these areas and the significance of their weights in the final instrument are significantly separate.

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On 6/30/2021 at 8:19 PM, chiaroscuro_violins said:

Prove that it hurts the sound quality of the assembled instrument :)

I know this isn't how burden of proof works.  I'm just genuinely curious why so many on this forum dismiss plate tuning, considering it is a low-tech, intuitive graduation technique that has been used by masters for a long time.  I'm all ears.  

Everything is tuned to something like it or not. You can tune a dozen fiddles exactly alike and when you get done half of them won't even resemble each other in performance or sound quality. It works out only if the person doing it has other things they do, the way they look at it, that ties it all together to make it work. The small differences in working methods and perceptions make a huge difference. There is a whole lot more going on than the tuning. As far as I can see tuning does just one thing, it gives you a reference point as to show how stiff the parts are separately and how stiff the box is as a whole. Tuning the box,(body modes) can give a certain guidance as to the general sound you will get out of the box. Pretty much like adjusting a graphic equalizer, but only in general terms. There is a whole lot more going on than that as the real magic happens in the higher frequencies where simple wood removal, or addition doesn't translate into a predictable pattern of reaching a certain goal.

The only thing that can be reasonably be tuned accurately are the body modes, and not even all of those can be done, but  violins with identical body modes can have drastically different outcomes because of the higher frequencies.

And none of this has to do with the tactile feel and the response and play-ability of the finished instrument, that is entirely something else. Identical body modes can be replicated with many different graduation patterns. Some of these patterns allow the violin to work well, some don't.

It's a tough act to follow, no doubt.

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