Zukerman Cancels Himself...

[Rue]

2 hours ago, violinnewb said:

That is a much fairer assessment and judgment of what occurred.  

Yes, the mimicking is probably a no-no.  I actually thought about this topic quite a bit and quite recently, prior to this discussion.

Honestly, as an Asian, if someone tries to speak to me in my native language, I really don't want it done in an American Southern accent.  I would rather you try and mimic the accent.  Does that mean Zuckerman was in the right?  No.  But consider this, try singing a traditional Japanese folk song without mimicking the accent.  Hmmm...I would argue that it really doesn't sound Japanese at that point unless you are singing actual Japanese lyrics.  I speak with a Mexican accent when I order tacos in Mexican-Spanish.  Does that make me racist?  I certainly hope not.

Zuckerman acknowledged the inappropriateness of his conduct and words.  To me, that says alot.  Lord knows that I have said and done things that others might find offensive, but I acknowledge, apologize, and try to change for the better.

FWIW...I was told by a Québécois that they much prefer if English speakers do not attempt a french accent. 

I recently read an article written by an Asian guy. He says people always compliment him on his English and ask where he's from. "Milwaukee." Born and bred American. 

I have friends from China and Vietnam.  I have given up trying to learn any words or phrases outside of "ni hau". I tried to say "hello" (xin chao) in Vietnamese...all I got were blank confused stares. 

[crazy jane]

It was my very great honor to play in the pit with this baritone for five different productions. The last was seven or eight years ago, when visa probem called him back to Korea. The Violetta is pretty spectacular, as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iBGPLH_dw8

of course Koreans can't sing. Everybody knows that.

[David Burgess]

White men can't dance.

[PhilipKT]

On 6/29/2021 at 5:15 AM, Arbos said:

Only it wasn’t criticism, it was telling them Korean and Japanese people don’t sing because it’s not in their DNA.

And what did he mean by that? Was he being literal? That’s highly doubtful. Was he being cultural? I have had dozens of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian students, and none of them, not one, ever sang unless they did so in church. Now that doesn’t mean they can’t sing: anyone who is musical can sing, because singing is the most basic expression of human musicality, but only that they don’t. And many of mine flat refused to sing even when I told them about internalizing the pitch, audiating, and other benefits to singing a passage. 
And maybe he was referring to that lack of singing when he made his comments? Even if he was, he was incorrect and should at least have expressed himself better, but it’s a fair distance to accuse him of being racist.

[Rue]

According to Merriam-Webster;

Definition of racism

1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

 

Definition of bigot

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Definition of condescending

: showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others

 

Well then, maybe he's just being foolish and condescending.

Not everything has to automatically be considered a worst-case scenario. I would think intent is also important before we haul out the pitchforks.

 

 

[Televet]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

FWIW...I was told by a Québécois that they much prefer if English speakers do not attempt a french accent. 

I recently read an article written by an Asian guy. He says people always compliment him on his English and ask where he's from. "Milwaukee." Born and bred American. 

I have friends from China and Vietnam.  I have given up trying to learn any words or phrases outside of "ni hau". I tried to say "hello" (xin chao) in Vietnamese...all I got were blank confused stares. 

Native French speakers don't seem to regard Canadian French very highly, FWIW. When I moved to Canada and moved to the  BC interior from the UK with my standard Oxford English I had many clients who could not understand me because of  my terrible accent and told my boss they didn't want to see the foreign Doctor and a Vancouver lawyer compliment me on my English which she thought was very acceptable for someone speaking it as their second language ! I'm a white male and the parent of red-headed daughters. Was it okay for one of their teacher's to tell them that 'Gingers don't have souls'?

Cultural insensitivity is everywhere all the time and often as not it is based on ignorance rather than malice. We should all work hard to do better. When it occurs it is right to call it out. I see old sitcoms which make me cringe rather than laugh. We have come a long way and we have a long way to go. The older we are the more baggage we have to shed 

[Rue]

Good grief! Yorkshire accent? Like in the James Herriot books?

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Triple post. But! I finally figured out why this happens! 

Why?

I’d love to stop it, Despite being inordinately  fond of my own writing.

:-)

[Rue]

21 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Why?

I’d love to stop it, Despite being inordinately  fond of my own writing.

:-)

In my case, I replied to a post that was on the previous page of replies. Then when you hit "submit reply"...it does, but it will show up at the very end of the thread, and that's the page you are currently NOT on. So... it looks like the "submit reply" didn't "catch", even though it did, and then you try it again...and again...with the same result.

And eventually, when you give up and go to last post...you notice you submitted two (or more) of the same!!!

It's like magic.

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

In my case, I replied to a post that was on the previous page of replies. Then when you hit "submit reply"...it does, but it will show up at the very end of the thread, and that's the page you are currently NOT on. So... it looks like the "submit reply" didn't "catch", even though it did, and then you try it again...and again...with the same result.

And eventually, when you give up and go to last post...you notice you submitted two (or more) of the same!!!

It's like magic.

 Oh, with me it’s somehow I accidentally double posting within the same comment

[Arbos]

9 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

And what did he mean by that? Was he being literal? That’s highly doubtful. Was he being cultural? I have had dozens of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian students, and none of them, not one, ever sang unless they did so in church.

My American students refuse to sing, my Spanish ones don’t. My theory is that while in the US music is taught primarily through the instrument, in Spain they learn solfege and choir from the beginning. But I would never say “Americans can’t sing”.

 

I can’t say whether Zukerman is racist or not, but this was not the first time he has mimicked random “Asian” sounds or reproduced stereotypes. Since I am Spanish I’m sure he’d told me to be more passional when I play, or something like that. I am just surprised at how the world works. Why did this particular occasion deserve such a response, and why are people acting surprised and offended *now*, when he’s done the same thing so many times?

[matesic]

39 minutes ago, Arbos said:

My American students refuse to sing, my Spanish ones don’t. My theory is that while in the US music is taught primarily through the instrument, in Spain they learn solfege and choir from the beginning. But I would never say “Americans can’t sing”.

Real men don't sing. I'm the only man I know who does, apart from my Japanese friend who introduced me to karaoke. I don't count droning with a guitar.

[romberg flat]

10 hours ago, David Burgess said:

White men can't dance.

nor can they jump...

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Its a pretty clear case of racism and bigotry, unless you're some king of racist right wing Republican who claims racism doesn't exist.

[David Burgess]

10 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Its a pretty clear case of racism and bigotry, unless you're some king of racist right wing Republican who claims racism doesn't exist.

So if someone doesn't interpret an event in the same way that you have, you're going to

!. Try to stereotype them.

2. Describe them using pejorative discriminatory language?

Aren't you doing the very thing that you claim to find offensive in others?

[Strad O Various Jr.]

We know you're pretty right wing, now you're defending Zuckerman's racist behavior?

[David Burgess]

17 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

We know you're pretty right wing, now you're defending Zuckerman's racist behavior?

Please quote where I have defended Zukerman's behavior.

And that's Zukerman, not "Zuckerman". Your misspelling clearly reveals your anti-Semitic predjudice. 

See, you're not the only one who can make up stupid accusations.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

FYI Zuckerman is a Jewish name too

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Even Zukerman admitted what he said was wrong and apologized, hopefully he was sincere about it. People that don't see clear cut cases like this as being racist, tend to be racists themselves, even though they will deny it and tell you they have Asian and Black friends.

[David Burgess]

18 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Even Zukerman admitted what he said was wrong and apologized, hopefully he was sincere about it. People that don't see clear cut cases like this as being racist, tend to be racists themselves, even though they will deny it and tell you they have Asian and Black friends.

Trying to stereotype people again? Isn't that the very mindset that's behind racism?

Of course, denial is futile, since you happen to be blessed with knowing a lot more about what's going on in a another persons head than they do.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

The comments by Zuckerman were clearly racist and would be interpreted as such by a large segment of the population, regardless of what our right wing fanatics would say. What is debatable is whether or not Zuckerman intended them to be racist and to denigrate Asian violinists. At least he has apologized, that's a good first step.

[romberg flat]

Speaking about stereotypes, here is one 'notorious racist' page https://www.nationalstereotype.com/about-us/ 

 

[GeorgeH]

Racism is complex and can be both conscious and unconscious. It can be expressed with explicit hatred or benign ignorance. It is certainly not confined to one political party or another nor to any social-economic group. It is so culturally ingrained via stereotypes that it can be difficult to recognize by people outside a marginalized group.

Assuming, ascribing, or assigning certain behaviors and traits based on physical characteristics such as skin color or eye shape (for example) is racism. I doubt that Zukerman intended to be deliberately hurtful to the sisters with his racist remarks, but they clearly were both racist and hurtful.

 

 

 

[Stephen Fine]

Pinky was just repeating old stereotypes he heard in his youth.  Rather stupid and racist of him.

Obviously, he knows better.  He's been teaching in fancy music schools long enough to recognize that, in fact, the Korean music education system is one of the best in the world.  Korean and Korean-American students are overrepresented in the world's top music schools and orchestras.

No idea why he would stoop to using racist stereotypes when he could just be ageist instead.  "Kids these days don't sing," would have rung very true to me.  I think kids aren't singing nearly enough in school.

Meanwhile, KPOP is taking the world by storm.

[violinnewb]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Even Zukerman admitted what he said was wrong and apologized, hopefully he was sincere about it. People that don't see clear cut cases like this as being racist, tend to be racists themselves, even though they will deny it and tell you they have Asian and Black friends.

Woah.  Admitting you were wrong and apologizing for conduct and statements that were (or were interpreted) as "racist" doesn't make anything more or less clear.  Strad, I say this based upon reading many of your comments in these forums, you seem to make things very binary.  There is nothing clear about whether Zukerman's conduct and statements make him "racist."  

I don't necessary frown nor do I support Zukerman's behavior.  I do support the fact that he apologized immediately, AND BEFORE the masterclass aired.

Lastly, am I racist for not being able to "see clear cut cases like this as being racist?"  I am Asian, 100%.  I took very little offense to Zukerman's statements and conduct.  I was confused at some of them, yes.  I didn't agree, yes.  But that does NOT make me racist.  And by the way, I DO have certain prejudices....but I am an equal opportunity lover/hater.  What I do not do is take my preferences to the next level and become antagonistic and violent, nor do I try to disseminate and perpetuate my beliefs onto others.  I state my opinions as food for thought and respect others, but I certainly do not try and make blanket statements that if you aren't on my side, you must be wrong.