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Casein on the inside of the violin.


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12 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I do not know your ground system, but let me add that “chalkiness” is often due to the drying process that leaves “scattering” surface features. This disappears with a smoothing layer of something like a varnish.

I find that caseinate enhances chatoyant reflections. Maybe I can demonstrate that later.

Stay tuned.

It is pretty sure the calcite, since i have also primers where i exclude its formation and they appear a lot more yellowish. Davide has a rather subtle primer - some of the 2-part primers i made can leave as whitish grounds as if you would treat them with Mr. Hargrave's plaster of paris/water slurry.

I like your stains, nevertheless i made the experience that intensively colored stains can clog the pores. Even if most of this impression isn't present after the first varnish coat, I still like to avoid it.

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52 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Lighting is very important. The yellow glow came from an incandescent lamp off to the side with a fluorescent lamp above.

Here is a photo in the morning sunlight.

And here it is under the shop lights.

I will show a lot more later.

 

Yep, overly bright yellow disappeared.:)

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So I am on violin #1... very new to things and not very experienced, but before I started building I did a ton of reading about different things like grounds, and there's a dizzying amount of ideas... I've settled on a casein attempt for my first violin, but I'm trying something a little different. I've read that potash was used as a treatment by Strad, so I thought I would see what that would do. And it not only dissolves the casein, but also has the same yellowing affect on the wood as using lime, without the chalkiness I've noticed. I'm not sure if this is potentially harmful to the wood, depending on concentration, but I've also read that lye is sometimes used to sort of "bleach" or brighten wood which gave me the idea to try it... yellowing doesn't seem the same as bleaching, but I wonder if this could be a worthwhile approach? I read an article where someone had used lye to treat wood used in their floors or ceilings and it looked like it was a commonly done type thing.

I don't have a before photo because I'm short sighted, but I've got the back/rib assembly done and have treated the inside with this concoction... here's a fairly accurate photo of how it looks. Not sure what would bee too concentrated or potentially harmful to the wood, but this looks like a good start to me, and it's also given the flames a bit of a shine in certain light...

treated.thumb.jpg.b9d75748a21323d7400b9e3fe9a6c300.jpg

 

Edit: Here is the outside of the back in roughly the same location, the inside is a rougher surface, but this is basically what it looked like prior to treating, this photo came out slightly greenish maybe...
also a link to the lye thing https://www.wocadirect.com/wood-lye/ (prevents yellowing -_-)


outside.thumb.jpg.c5f3367f66629f981379be6f028c80db.jpg

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2 hours ago, Mike Atkins said:

So I am on violin #1... very new to things and not very experienced, but before I started building I did a ton of reading about different things like grounds, and there's a dizzying amount of ideas... I've settled on a casein attempt for my first violin, but I'm trying something a little different. I've read that potash was used as a treatment by Strad, so I thought I would see what that would do. And it not only dissolves the casein, but also has the same yellowing affect on the wood as using lime, without the chalkiness I've noticed. I'm not sure if this is potentially harmful to the wood, depending on concentration, but I've also read that lye is sometimes used to sort of "bleach" or brighten wood which gave me the idea to try it... yellowing doesn't seem the same as bleaching, but I wonder if this could be a worthwhile approach? I read an article where someone had used lye to treat wood used in their floors or ceilings and it looked like it was a commonly done type thing.

I don't have a before photo because I'm short sighted, but I've got the back/rib assembly done and have treated the inside with this concoction... here's a fairly accurate photo of how it looks. Not sure what would bee too concentrated or potentially harmful to the wood, but this looks like a good start to me, and it's also given the flames a bit of a shine in certain light...

Edit: Here is the outside of the back in roughly the same location, the inside is a rougher surface, but this is basically what it looked like prior to treating, this photo came out slightly greenish maybe...
also a link to the lye thing https://www.wocadirect.com/wood-lye/ (prevents yellowing -_-)

Hi Mike,

have you taken a look at the safety data sheet?

What you used is not potassium hydroxide (potash), but sodium hydroxide.

So if you wanted to emulate Strad (assuming he used something like this), you're off track.:D

If you want potash you can make it by boiling wood ash, vine ash is a good candidate for potassium.

Each chemical treatments is potentially harmful, but to what extent and whether in a positive or negative way it is difficult to establish without accurate chemical and mechanical analysis. It depends on variables such as concentrations, degree of absorption, contact times before its effect ends, unreacted residues that can remain in the wood and reactivate in the presence of humidity with the risk of saponification of the overlying varnish and recurrence of the possible destruction of the wood (especially lignin and hemicellulose), and so on. Probably not as strong and harmful as pure nitric acid, but who knows.

But some argue that some targeted wood destruction is good, and that Stradivari did it somehow, I'm not really sure but no one will be able to give you an answer for sure, not even the so-called scientific studies, always published in a sensationalist way.

In the end it's up to you whether or not to take the risk, a lot depends on how and how reasonably these chemicals are used, because they can have positive but also very negative effects.

Starting with commercial products that you don't even know the composition of is not a good start, a violin does not have the same function as a floor.;)

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1 minute ago, Davide Sora said:

What you used is not potassium hydroxide (potash), but sodium hydroxide.

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. I didn't use the product from the link, that just gave me the idea combined with what I've heard about Strad using potash.

I actually used Potassium Hydroxide that I bought from Wood Finishing Enterprises, and casein that I made from milk.

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1 minute ago, Mike Atkins said:

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. I didn't use the product from the link, that just gave me the idea combined with what I've heard about Strad using potash.

I actually used Potassium Hydroxide that I bought from Wood Finishing Enterprises, and casein that I made from milk.

Ah, that's better, even if all other considerations remain valid

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1 minute ago, Davide Sora said:

Ah, that's better, even if all other considerations remain valid

I guess my question was is potash/casein a decent option? I'm not sure why lime is typically the ingredient used. It seems very few people mention using potash, and I wonder if there's a reason it's not mentioned more often.

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1 minute ago, Mike Atkins said:

I guess my question was is potash/casein a decent option? I'm not sure why lime is typically the ingredient used. It seems very few people mention using potash, and I wonder if there's a reason it's not mentioned more often.

I don't know, what I wanted to emphasize is that no one can give you the answer you are looking for, every luthier is based on his own experience which unfortunately is always limited for one reason or another. And luthiers often don't like to say everything, especially things they have no certainty about, especially on a public forum

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2 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

I don't know, what I wanted to emphasize is that no one can give you the answer you are looking for, every luthier is based on his own experience which unfortunately is always limited for one reason or another. And luthiers often don't like to say everything, especially things they have no certainty about, especially on a public forum

That's fair! It's my first instrument so if it dissolves into dust I'm sure it won't be a total loss... and definitely a learning experience. So far it looks like the treatment has had a nice effect. 

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Let me chime in.

FWIW, I use potassium hydroxide to make potassium caseinate which is very water soluble and transparent. I could use potassium carbonate, but I like KOH. I stay away from sodium hydroxide. I also add salt to the caseinate as a preservative. This stuff will stink as it ages and the salt helps. It’s what my grandparents used to preserve cheese. I have used cheese for my acid casein, but it is messy. So, I use dry acid casein from Kremer to avoid the trouble. Life is short. LOL

BTW, there is a lot of calcium in wood ashes, so I stopped using it. Calcium caseinate is less transparent and less soluble, and gells into glue, if that is what you want.

Hope this helps others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Let me chime in.

FWIW, I use potassium hydroxide to make potassium caseinate which is very water soluble and transparent. I could use potassium carbonate, but I like KOH. I stay away from sodium hydroxide. I also add salt to the caseinate as a preservative. This stuff will stink as it ages and the salt helps. It’s what my grandparents used to preserve cheese. I have used cheese for my acid casein, but it is messy. So, I use dry acid casein from Kremer to avoid the trouble. Life is short. LOL

BTW, there is a lot of calcium in wood ashes, so I stopped using it. Calcium caseinate is less transparent and less soluble, and gells into glue, if that is what you want.

Hope this helps others.

Thanks for the info, I've never tried with potassium hydroxide. When you talk about salt as a preservative, do you mean sodium chloride (table salt)? and in what percentage do you add it? Do you think it can work with ammonium caseinate too?

Three questions in a row, I think that's enough:P

PS After scientists have found salt on stradivari tables, it will soon be the new fashion and I will have to find a way to say that I also put it on my violins:D:D

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4 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Let me chime in.

FWIW, I use potassium hydroxide to make potassium caseinate which is very water soluble and transparent. I could use potassium carbonate, but I like KOH. I stay away from sodium hydroxide. I also add salt to the caseinate as a preservative. This stuff will stink as it ages and the salt helps. It’s what my grandparents used to preserve cheese. I have used cheese for my acid casein, but it is messy. So, I use dry acid casein from Kremer to avoid the trouble. Life is short. LOL

BTW, there is a lot of calcium in wood ashes, so I stopped using it. Calcium caseinate is less transparent and less soluble, and gells into glue, if that is what you want.

Hope this helps others.

This is great and makes me feel like I'm not making seriously bad choices... though my solution may have been more concentrated than it should have been, not sure.

With what you said about calcium, it seems strange to me that people suggest slaked lime (calcium hydroxide?) when I tried this I did get a white chalky substance on the wood, again not sure about the concentration. From what I understand this is rendered transparent by varnish, but it didn't look quite right to me when I was messing with it. Not that I know what 'right' should look like... The potash/casein didn't have the same effect.

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With all the talk of potash..  here's a link to a research document which identifies 'possibly' a pretreatment with lye on some historical instruments.   I don't think that's the whole story though.   

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0026265X19321204?via%3Dihub

MichaelK thanks for posting the Strad photo, awesome!  And your following photo looks very similar.  

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18 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Thanks for the info, I've never tried with potassium hydroxide. When you talk about salt as a preservative, do you mean sodium chloride (table salt)? and in what percentage do you add it? Do you think it can work with ammonium caseinate too?

Three questions in a row, I think that's enough:P

PS After scientists have found salt on Stradivari tables, it will soon be the new fashion and I will have to find a way to say that I also put it on my violins:D:D

Pickling salt (NaCl) inhibits microbial deterioration. For 45 g of acid casein I use 80 g of common salt. This is on the high side, but I hate the stench produced in a jar of caseinate left alone for a few days. So, I nuke it. I'm sure you can reduce it to 1:1. One day I opened a jar of caseinate and the gaseous stench burst out, traveled from my basement shop up to the second floor in a few minutes where my son complained about my stinky experiments.

I have no experience with ammonium caseinate although it is similar and should work. I know that researchers and many makers use this, but I question its historical use. Potassium caseinate is an old wine clarification additive. Also, lots of potassium is detected in Strad's work. Either caseinate should work. Calcium casseinate, however, is not as fluid nor as transparent. Nevertheless, that does not eliminate its possible use. Pick your poison.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MikeC said:

 

With all the talk of potash..  here's a link to a research document which identifies 'possibly' a pretreatment with lye on some historical instruments.   I don't think that's the whole story though.   

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0026265X19321204?via%3Dihub

MichaelK thanks for posting the Strad photo, awesome!  And your following photo looks very similar.  

Yes. Fantastic photos.

 

Question for Everyone (lurkers too): what is the source of the overall yellow color?

Second question for Everyone: what is the source of the reddish  dots and dashes? 

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19 hours ago, Mike Atkins said:

This is great and makes me feel like I'm not making seriously bad choices... though my solution may have been more concentrated than it should have been, not sure.

With what you said about calcium, it seems strange to me that people suggest slaked lime (calcium hydroxide?) when I tried this I did get a white chalky substance on the wood, again not sure about the concentration. From what I understand this is rendered transparent by varnish, but it didn't look quite right to me when I was messing with it. Not that I know what 'right' should look like... The potash/casein didn't have the same effect.

I agree about calcium; however, we could be wrong. In my case, it would not be the first time. 

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16 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Question for Everyone (lurkers too): what is the source of the overall yellow color?

Second question for Everyone: what is the source of the reddish  dots and dashes? 

I have a feeling it's some type of reaction between the wood and/or casein with the alkaline solution. Also I have a feeling the reddish dots and dashes are really the same reaction with different types or angles of grain in the wood that are slightly reddish to begin with. Like you said... I could be wrong, definitely I have no idea what I'm doing whatsoever

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42 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Pickling salt (NaCl) inhibits microbial deterioration. For 45 g of acid casein I use 80 g of common salt. This is on the high side, but I hate the stench produced in a jar of caseinate left alone for a few days. So, I nuke it. I'm sure you can reduce it to 1:1. One day I opened a jar of caseinate and the gaseous stench burst out, traveled from my basement shop up to the second floor in a few minutes where my son complained about my stinky experiments.

I have no experience with ammonium caseinate although it is similar and should work. I know that researchers and many makers use this, but I question its historical use. Potassium caseinate is an old wine clarification additive. Also, lots of potassium is detected in Strad's work. Either caseinate should work. Calcium casseinate, however, is not as fluid nor as transparent. Nevertheless, that does not eliminate its possible use. Pick your poison.

Yep, the stench of rotting casein is very nasty, I understand your son's reaction:D

I keep it in the refrigerator to prevent it from rotting, but in any case I make it fresh every time.

The amount of salt you use seems a lot to me, even 1:1 seems a lot. I don't think I will use it, the salt attracts a lot of moisture, I don't know if it's good or bad but it doesn't give me a good feeling. But I can be wrong too;)

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3 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Yep, the stench of rotting casein is very nasty, I understand your son's reaction:D

I keep it in the refrigerator to prevent it from rotting, but in any case I make it fresh every time.

The amount of salt you use seems a lot to me, even 1:1 seems a lot. I don't think I will use it, the salt attracts a lot of moisture, I don't know if it's good or bad but it doesn't give me a good feeling. But I can be wrong too;)

I should have given the entire recipe which shows that the salt concentration is not ridiculously high.

Sorry.

500 ml distilled water (this avoids dissolved minerals like iron)

14 g KOH (for a 0.25 M solution)

45 g acid casein (slowly dissolved)

80 g table salt as a preservative.

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5 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Question for Everyone (lurkers too): what is the source of the overall yellow color?

Second question for Everyone: what is the source of the reddish  dots and dashes?

I was intrigued by this question, so I did some snooping around and it seems yellowing is typically the result of whatever tannins are in the wood reacting with something... kinda makes sense I guess. I still think the second question is answered by the first... where different grain orientations/patterns like flames in the wood that are already darker are simply having the same reaction and remaining darker or "reddish".

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5 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I should have given the entire recipe which shows that the salt concentration is not ridiculously high.

Sorry.

500 ml distilled water (this avoids dissolved minerals like iron)

14 g KOH (for a 0.25 M solution)

45 g acid casein (slowly dissolved)

80 g table salt as a preservative.

On 500 ml of water the amount of salt seems more reasonable.:)

Thanks for the recipe.

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5 hours ago, jack london said:

Davide--

I hope I am not asking a trade secret, but could you share your recipe?  You mentioned that you dissolve the casein in ammonia, and I was curious of the proportions.   Do you use any water? 

I keep my secrets closely guarded on Youtube:)

 

Find the recipe for casein translated into English in the description below the video. For your convenience, I've copied and pasted it below. There is a lot of water, ammonia is used in strictly necessary quantities to dissolve the dry powdered casein (Kremer) which only in water would not dissolve-

Casein 1,5g                                                                                                                                              Distilled water 15g

Leave to soak overnight to let the Casein swell. Add 4.5ml of Ammonia (30% concentration) a little at a time, mixing well until everything dissolves. Add 18ml of Lime water (saturated solution of Calcium Hydroxide), mix well and leave to rest for a few hours.

Concentration at 4% (water 37.5g - Casein 1.5g) Dilution ratio 1:25 (1 part Casein: 25 parts water)

Edit: You can also find the same recipe already in English in this other video, I forgot about this video, I've made too many...:rolleyes:

 

 

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