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Casein on the inside of the violin.


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18 minutes ago, Michael K. said:

You welcome Davide. See us next month?

I am experimenting as everybody here. But sorry, no Casein on it. But exiting how it looks in 300 years. :D

 

my.jpeg

It looks beautiful!!

Perhaps just a little too yellow, for what this impression taken from a photo and also viewed on different screens is worth...;)

I'll still be here next month, but I don't have anything special planned during the Mondomusica period. However you will always be welcome in my workshop for a greeting.  Or I'll come and see you at the fair if you have a booth.

Do you have some instrument at the Triennale? (If you like to declare it publicly...:ph34r:)

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18 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

It looks beautiful!!

Perhaps just a little too yellow, for what this impression taken from a photo and also viewed on different screens is worth...;)

I'll still be here next month, but I don't have anything special planned during the Mondomusica period. However you will always be welcome in my workshop for a greeting.  Or I'll come and see you at the fair if you have a booth.

Do you have some instrument at the Triennale? (If you like to declare it publicly...:ph34r:)

Unfortunately no booth this year at the Fair. But i come as a visitor for 3 day´s. I think we miss the Exhibition at the
Via Mercatello with Wine and Food this year?
Yes i participate first time at the Triennale with a Cello. I let me surprise....

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On 8/19/2021 at 12:04 PM, Michael K. said:

I think it is Calcium-Hydroxide as Davide use it

That`s right as we see on the most Strad`s. )Photo of the Back "King George 1710".
And note the bright "Mirrors" in the Flames. Today we see just the opposite by using Water-stain or chemical treatments
with a resulting quenching of the fluorescence.

Strad1.jpg

Beautiful photo, maestro!

Actually there are some stains which leave the medullary rays bright. I fully agree about chemical treatments using nitrites and lyes - they darken the rays considerably. 

I want my wood primer to have little (=no) fluorescence, as it can be seen in the Brandmair/Greiner uv shots.

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6 hours ago, Michael K. said:

Unfortunately no booth this year at the Fair. But i come as a visitor for 3 day´s. I think we miss the Exhibition at the
Via Mercatello with Wine and Food this year?
Yes i participate first time at the Triennale with a Cello. I let me surprise....

Unfortunately, given the uncertain situation for Covid, no one felt like spending energy to organize something. Furthermore, the premises in via Mercatello that we had rented were purchased by a shop that sells cheeses, which now occupies them on a permanent basis. Too bad because they were very beautiful, we will have to look for some other locations for years to come.<_<

But since you will be exhibited at the Triennale (I'm sure in a good position:)) there will certainly be other occasions to see us

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3 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

I want my wood primer to have little (=no) fluorescence, as it can be seen in the Brandmair/Greiner uv shots.

Hi Michael, in fact yours is an excellent ground, after several tests I finally tried the one you kindly gave me the last time you came to Cremona. However, I have not tested for UV fluorescence (my bad). Is it still what you are using or have you done new experiments?

995378984_DSC_9798UVCaseinGroundSzyperA2Brid.thumb.jpg.c207438fbd8cd53e3accea3cb0b6313b.jpg

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17 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

But since you will be exhibited at the Triennale (I'm sure in a good position:)) there will certainly be other occasions to see us

Yes for sure, or i come to visit you in your workshop.

20 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

I want my wood primer to have little (=no) fluorescence, as it can be seen in the Brandmair/Greiner uv shots.

I am always amazed at the differences between Brandmair and the books of the Swiss Association of Violin Makers "Old Master Violins - Alte Meistergeigen", 7 Bände) which were published at the end of the 1970s. According to this, Stradivari did not stain the wood or colored it in any other way. The investigation always begins with "staining - none, pore filler - dull brown". When the wood is stained, it is always fluorescent extinguishing what we cannot see in the originals.

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On 8/20/2021 at 6:03 PM, Davide Sora said:

Hi Michael, in fact yours is an excellent ground, after several tests I finally tried the one you kindly gave me the last time you came to Cremona. However, I have not tested for UV fluorescence (my bad). Is it still what you are using or have you done new experiments?

Hi Davide, thank you so much, it is such an honor! The uv fluorescence of this ground is actually black and matches the fluorescence images of B/G pretty good. 
I still use this ground, but I made some variations of this concoction in order to get different hues (some with a darker, greenish hue, some redder - in order to be able to get closer in copying) 

I hope to see you in Cremona! If you need more, I can bring you some of the other grounds.

7 hours ago, Michael K. said:

The investigation always begins with "staining - none, pore filler - dull brown". When the wood is stained, it is always fluorescent extinguishing what we cannot see in the originals.

I am not sure wether the authors had also access to microscopic sagittal uv pics. This  method is excellent to properly investigate the layers. Since lot of the base varnish soaked into the wood, it may be difficult to discern between it and a stain layer without looking at shavings. What I like about bg is, that you can drive your own conclusions since there is so much data/material to work with. I don’t like to rely on “expert claims” only.

 

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1 hour ago, Michael Szyper said:

I am not sure wether the authors had also access to microscopic sagittal uv pics. This  method is excellent to properly investigate the layers. Since lot of the base varnish soaked into the wood, it may be difficult to discern between it and a stain layer without looking at shavings. What I like about bg is, that you can drive your own conclusions since there is so much data/material to work with. I don’t like to rely on “expert claims” only.

 

I can`t  copy here parts of the Book, but sure they did a great job. The examination methods are described in detail in the introduction.

Bellow Daylight and Fluorescence  from the Top of A. Strad. Cello "Bonamy Dobreè, Suggia" 1717.

BS.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Michael K. said:

I can`t  copy here parts of the Book, but sure they did a great job. The examination methods are described in detail in the introduction.

Bellow Daylight and Fluorescence  from the Top of A. Strad. Cello "Bonamy Dobreè, Suggia" 1717.

BS.jpg

That is pretty much the same what you can see in “modern” Uv samples. Unfortunately I don’t know the methodology behind excluding wood stain, but there is plenty of evidence for the use of it. 

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Just now, Michael Szyper said:

That is pretty much the same what you can see in “modern” Uv samples. Unfortunately I don’t know the methodology behind excluding wood stain, but there is plenty of evidence for the use of it. 

Edit: IMO on this instrument you can see mostly retouching and Sandarac-based overcoating.

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25 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

That is pretty much the same what you can see in “modern” Uv samples. Unfortunately I don’t know the methodology behind excluding wood stain, but there is plenty of evidence for the use of it. 

And exiting the big difference to J.B. Vuillaume. 

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17 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Hi Davide, thank you so much, it is such an honor! The uv fluorescence of this ground is actually black and matches the fluorescence images of B/G pretty good. 
I still use this ground, but I made some variations of this concoction in order to get different hues (some with a darker, greenish hue, some redder - in order to be able to get closer in copying) 

I hope to see you in Cremona! If you need more, I can bring you some of the other grounds.

Will you come to Cremona for Mondomusica? it will be a pleasure to meet you and exchange few words on your ground, I have some questions for you.

If you are kind enough to offer it to me, I will certainly not refuse some samples of your new grounds.:)

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7 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Will you come to Cremona for Mondomusica? it will be a pleasure to meet you and exchange few words on your ground, I have some questions for you.

If you are kind enough to offer it to me, I will certainly not refuse some samples of your new grounds.:)

Yes, I will be in Cremona from Thursday until Sunday. Of course I am going to bring you my newest stuff. And I will have a lot of questions, too :)

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48 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Try to have a white card or paper towel  in photos so we can adjust the white balance. I know that’s difficult, but it helps immensely.

;)

Of course you are right, but rendering the effect and color especially of the ground is terribly difficult, and you almost always have to adjust the exposure by underexposing the photo to make the color more similar to the real one you see. This is the case of the photo I posted, if exposed correctly the ground reflected too much light becoming too bright and completely different from the real thing. That's why th photo is very dark, but the color of the violin is more accurate to what I was seeing, in order to give a rough idea of the color tone. I also tried to put a white card, but then trying to adjust the photo doing the white balance on the white card the color of the violin did not correspond to reality. Unfortunately, accuracy is a pipe dream in these cases, or perhaps it is Michael's magnificent ground which has an unprecedented power of refraction. :lol:

Here's another shot816617863_DSC_9809UVCaseinGroundSzyperA2Brit.thumb.jpg.cd82965a8cfe21fdc655aefd973a7ef5.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

No yellow?

The yellow is there, it comes out after the application of the refractive ground (mastic and turpentine). I must also say that the ground is applied on top of the casein, otherwise it would be even less yellow.

1402744210_DSC_9983CaseinGroundA2BMasticTurpentine.thumb.jpg.bd331cac1ca5ab0ecd2306ccce8286cf.jpg

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5 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

A nice color, indeed. My screen  make it looks perhaps with the yellow hue a little too bright.

Lighting is very important. The yellow glow came from an incandescent lamp off to the side with a fluorescent lamp above.

Here is a photo in the morning sunlight.

035FF230-7D63-47DC-964D-81A135F81338.thumb.jpeg.4aa49b275e10df763416ee6454be9961.jpeg

And here it is under the shop lights.

755D0BEB-7C52-411A-B076-BFEA9D0A4D25.thumb.jpeg.4eea9eadff12ff21a8dabdfbfa58619a.jpeg

I will show a lot more later.

 

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5 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

There is a reaction of the ground which causes calcite forming in the wood making the dry wood looking chalky.

I do not know your ground system, but let me add that “chalkiness” is often due to the drying process that leaves “scattering” surface features. This disappears with a smoothing layer of something like a varnish.

I find that caseinate enhances chatoyant reflections. Maybe I can demonstrate that later.

Stay tuned.

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