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Fritz Meinel. Master German bowmaker


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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

It means that Meinel worked for a short time in the Nürnberger shop before establishing his own and later delivered bow blanks to this shop for further treatment. These are the informations given by Grünke. The book also shows a rather nice (ziemlich schönB)) silver and mop mounted bow by this maker, which is stamped and clearly related to the Nürnberger style.  If this applies to the OP bow also might be a matter of personal opinion.

Thanks. I will read the book. 

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5 hours ago, Jeny Mahon said:

Dude, you really need to chill and take a step back.  Insulting the experts on this forum will not endear you to anybody.  Maybe check out Jacob's credentials and think about apologizing.  It's just a goddam bow FFS.  

Dear Jeny Mahon,

Apologize for what? Jacob's credentials are not the issue here. Hans Karl Schmidt is considered the foremost authority on german bows. This is a" certificate " from him for which I paid €400.Hans Karl Schmidt is to German bows as is Raffin to French bows. If there is to be an apology here it would be directly to Hans Karl Schmidt.And yes it is " just a bow". Just happens to be a beautiful bow that also plays beautifully. I was just simply proud to share this here. But if it is going to stir up such vitriolic responses, perhaps I should not bother. I was also under the impression that " pegbox" was the place to share aspects relating to violins and bows.

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1 hour ago, Alexander James Stew said:

Dear Jeny Mahon,

Apologize for what? Jacob's credentials are not the issue here. Hans Karl Schmidt is considered the foremost authority on german bows. This is a" certificate " from him for which I paid €400.Hans Karl Schmidt is to German bows as is Raffin to French bows. If there is to be an apology here it would be directly to Hans Karl Schmidt.And yes it is " just a bow". Just happens to be a beautiful bow that also plays beautifully. I was just simply proud to share this here. But if it is going to stir up such vitriolic responses, perhaps I should not bother. I was also under the impression that " pegbox" was the place to share aspects relating to violins and bows.

No apology required. There is nothing “vitriolic” about pointing out the difference between an opinion and a fact

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There are a number of images of certificates for bows written by Hans Karl Schmidt that may be found using a web search. In each example I have found, "albeit von" ("work by") is used to point to the maker of the bow.

"In my opinion" or "in our opinion" is pretty much standard language nowadays, and is used in certificates even when the certificate is from a well-known expert and the attribution is rock-solid.

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1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

There are a number of images of certificates for bows written by Hans Karl Schmidt that may be found using a web search. In each example I have found, "albeit von" ("work by") is used to point to the maker of the bow.

"In my opinion" or "in our opinion" is pretty much standard language nowadays, and is used in certificates even when the certificate is from a well-known expert and the attribution is rock-solid.

Absolutely 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about certificate wording here. How certificates are phrased depends on the law of the specific country.

German certificates, like UK certificates, always have a disclaimer ie. “in our opinion”.

French certificates foliow French law, and a lot more emphasis is placed on them as a legal guarantee. The issuers must be certified at the Court of Appeal etc.

A HansKarl Schmidt certificate is pretty cast iron when it comes to German bows, and that’s what the OP has.

We could have an abstract and abstruse discussion about the function of certificates, but to tear into the OP for being proud of a well certified bow seems slightly odd.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

 

We could have an abstract and abstruse discussion about the function of certificates, but to tear into the OP for being proud of a well certified bow seems slightly odd.

 

 

We didn’t. He posted his bow without mentioning the certificate, and only got ratty after I asked him how he knew it was from the year 1920, which with all due respect for Schmidt is still an estimte

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35 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

We didn’t. He posted his bow without mentioning the certificate, and only got ratty after I asked him how he knew it was from the year 1920

He asked if anyone shares his enthusiasm. There was a comment about Ebay. I can understand why he got defensive. 

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To clarify it a bit more it should be considered that the history of the expertise about German bows is different from the French. For example, Raffin is basically coming from the Millant "school of expertise", while there's no person comparable to Millant in regards of German bows. French bows were often branded from early periods onwards, German mostly not. So no wonder that all knowledge about 19th century bows are based on some very rare branded and undisputed examples, and that disagreements between different experts are more common than in regards of French bows. Comparing one of the German experts with a French is a bit like comparing apples with oranges, and therefore might be a reason for the particular disclaimer in the certificate.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

To clarify it a bit more it should be considered that the history of the expertise about German bows is different from the French. For example, Raffin is basically coming from the Millant "school of expertise", while there's no person comparable to Millant in regards of German bows. French bows were often branded from early periods onwards, German mostly not. So no wonder that all knowledge about 19th century bows are based on some very rare branded and undisputed examples, and that disagreements between different experts are more common than in regards of French bows. Comparing one of the German experts with a French is a bit like comparing apples with oranges, and therefore might be a reason for the particular disclaimer in the certificate.

 

 

Don’t disagree with any of that except that all German certificates carry a disclaimer along the usual lines, whether for German violins, Italian violins or whatever …

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You learn something new every day, I did not know that French bows can be more easily traced because more of them are stamped and therefore there are more examples with which to form an opinion, Whereas German bows Were less frequently stamped and therefore there is a much smaller body of definite work.

The hand written claim in this particular certificate Appears to be pretty definite. The only thing that is vague is the date of “approximately 1920” and therefore this certificate would stand or fall based on the reputation of the man who wrote it. That it is one man’s opinion should go without saying, but this opinion appears to be pretty definitely stated. Regardless, If Martin endorses it, that’s good enough for me.

Whatever it is, it’s a lovely bow. Well done.

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8 hours ago, Blank face said:

I'm always wondering about such details.

 

alleged Meinel 1.jpg

alleged Meinel 2.jpg

Can you clarify what it is you are looking at? It appears that you are looking at the place on the frog where the stamp would be and there is no stamp(Or perhaps we see the remains of a stamp?) And you might be looking also at the collar design, or what appears to be a capital “L” on the stick?

 

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14 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

(P.S. Germany are playing Portugal at the moment, so you won't hear from him in a hurry)

At 9 pm;). Not only for this reason I think we've discussed it more than it might be apropriate for the moment and I won't add anything further. If the OP is enthusiastic with his bow he's in his right, the rest is a matter of taste I'm supposing.

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I can't say anything about this bowmaker Meinel, but I do think that good quality German bows can be a real bargain in most markets, US and France especially. When I was still living in the US I used a bow I think is a Hoyer for many years as a favourite playing bow, and I'm beginning to amass a number of excellent German bows in my "woodpile" these days. I'll probably make a trek to Dresden one of these days since no one around here is able to certify these. 

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

BF is wondering if the Frog belongs to the stick I think

(P.S. Germany are playing Portugal at the moment, so you won't hear from him in a hurry)

Well, the Orioles are playing the Blue Jays, so I’m checking out for a few hours…

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10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Sounds like cruelty to animals :)

Well, given the fact that the Orioles are probably the worst team in baseball at the moment, it is definitely cruelty to the fans.

The Blue Jays are in Toronto though, and everybody knows those French Canadians are kind to animals

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58 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

I can't say anything about this bowmaker Meinel, but I do think that good quality German bows can be a real bargain in most markets, US and France especially. When I was still living in the US I used a bow I think is a Hoyer for many years as a favourite playing bow, and I'm beginning to amass a number of excellent German bows in my "woodpile" these days. I'll probably make a trek to Dresden one of these days since no one around here is able to certify these. 

I have played a miraculous Hoyer cello bow That is at least equal of both of my nice French bows.I never for see them for sale So I don’t know what market price is on them, but the playability seems to be outstanding.

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11 hours ago, Blank face said:

I'm always wondering about such details.

 

alleged Meinel 1.jpg

alleged Meinel 2.jpg

OK so after Jacobs suggestion I went back and looked, and it appears that the edge of the frog does not fit flush with the facet of the stick, and the button is a wee bit off-center. That might just require bushing of the nipple, but that doesn’t indicate that the frog and button don’t match, does it? Regarding the frog, is that large red flag?

 

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2 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

It's live right now! I won't say anything about the score if you plan to watch the replay.

Today it's so hot that I confused the time of Germany and Spain and we came home too late.:angry: OTOH it seems as if they are usually winning as long as I don't watch the whole game, so it's allright.:)

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

OK so after Jacobs suggestion I went back and looked, and it appears that the edge of the frog does not fit flush with the facet of the stick, and the button is a wee bit off-center. That might just require bushing of the nipple, but that doesn’t indicate that the frog and button don’t match, does it? Regarding the frog, is that large red flag?

 

If it was easy to tell I woudn't wonder. But it seems that the certificate photo is featuring the same issue, while the button is centered, and that would at least appear to be unusual for one of these extremely precise working German maker, that's all what's possible to tell without going into speculations.

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13 hours ago, mathieu valde said:

exactly. I think it is so called  " letter of opinion" and I think it is not worth anything. We saw last month here exactly same kind of "paper" about saxon violin someone bought on ebay terribly expensive, stating it is French and old. 

NB: guy who bought "very expensive and old French saxon" -  I hope he stopped finally to buy crap on ebay and get back his money, any news? 

 

Dear Mathieu

I think you will find that this is not " a letter of opinion" but indeed a certificate passed by an authority who DOES TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. And once again I did not attain this MEINEL bow through E bay. Please find below the front of the "certificate " that Hans Karl Schmidt wrote for me. I hope this lays to rest any doubts.

2021_06_19 21_48 Office Lens.jpg

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