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I.D an old violin


Rezgar
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Hello all, I have this violin and not sure what really is . I was wandering if the experts here would be kind and take look at it. I'm  a new member and can't reply as fast as I want due to restrictions of post per day. Just want to thank you for your comment and opinion.  Violin is nice and brilliant clear playable has alot if repair done to it,with some  new hair line crack which need to be fixed  before set it up again. Fingers crossed for the  results 20210614_194846.thumb.jpg.68412058d08d3919b446258b7fcf9dc8.jpg

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6 hours ago, Bardan said:

So it's a fake French one?  I've been wandering through threads trying to get an idea of how you can tell, and then when I finally get some certainty, my bubble is burst!

Not really a fake French violin, just a German violin with a nonsense label glued inside.

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23 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

You would appear to have a quite nice Markneukirchen Dutzendarbeit from the end of the 19th C.

Thanks for your expert opinion,  I would take words "quite nice " from you any time. But out of curiosity, was it common to have the oil varnish on a dutzendarbeit instead of speedy spirit?  Is there anyway to recognize different regions and date by the varnish?

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47 minutes ago, Rezgar said:

 out of curiosity, was it common to have the oil varnish on a dutzendarbeit instead of speedy spirit?  Is there anyway to recognize different regions and date by the varnish?

I would like to know what makes you think it has an oil varnish? I would very much doubt that. The “antiquing” in the bridge area would be a clue, if anything

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4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would like to know what makes you think it has an oil varnish? I would very much doubt that. The “antiquing” in the bridge area would be a clue, if anything

Thanks notice my point Mr Saunders , I don't want to say I m an expert but I have been making violin for years and I  only used oil varnish on my violins. test I have done was alcohol test and no mater how aggressive I was it didn't effect th varnish at all But if there s a better effective way to confirm it I am all ears to listen.  

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45 minutes ago, Rezgar said:

I  only used oil varnish on my violins. test I have done was alcohol test and no mater how aggressive I was it didn't effect th varnish at all 

If you are allowed to speculate, then so am I. I would think it most lightly that the varnish is the bog standard shellac/sanderac spirit varnish from the chemist Setzer, and some antiquing from Nußbeize (nut stain) which you won’t wipe off in a hurry either

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2 hours ago, Rezgar said:

Test I have done was alcohol test and no mater how aggressive I was it didn't effect th varnish at all But if there s a better effective way to confirm it I am all ears to listen.  

Over time, the solubility of varnishes can change.

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13 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Would you really have come to that conclusion, had you ignored the label? 

Yes I really would have come to that conclusion, I actually was thinking it looked French before I ever saw the label. The beveling of the scroll and the black on the beveling, the color of the varnish and the overall shape of it looked French to me, that’s not much to go on, but that’s really what I thought, so I hope I get a little bit of credit for that. In one of the other photographs there’s a close-up of the edge or the F hole I’m not sure which, and the wood had The kind of grain that I seen on a lot of good quality Markies So I briefly wondered if it was a German a Violin pretending to be French, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t think it looked like a nice violin, and if that’s a Dutzenarbeit, then those folks are getting better.

But yes, my first instinct was that it was French, but as I frequently say, and as everybody agrees, I know nur wenig.

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13 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Would you really have come to that conclusion, had you ignored the label? 

Perhaps I’m referring to the chamfers of the scroll? The edges that have been blacked even though much of it has been worn off. I thought that was a french thing.

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23 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If you are allowed to speculate, then so am I. I would think it most lightly that the varnish is the bog standard shellac/sanderac spirit varnish from the chemist Setzer, and some antiquing from Nußbeize (nut stain) which you won’t wipe off in a hurry either

Hello again, you are right perhaps, and I wouldn't argue on that . Would it make any more difference if it has full blocked and inside or outside molding? Also my question was if there is good information about type of varnish to pin point the area and date for Markneukirchen made violin or its too complicated? Again thanks for your help and  patience. 

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29 minutes ago, Rezgar said:

Hello again, you are right perhaps, and I wouldn't argue on that . Would it make any more difference if it has full blocked and inside or outside molding? Also my question was if there is good information about type of varnish to pin point the area and date for Markneukirchen made violin or its too complicated? Again thanks for your help and  patience. 

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The corner block is fitted and glued in after the ribs were bent, and, although they fitted it quite well, you can be sure that it doesn’t fit anywhere near as well, were you to take the back off. You can see nicely how the joint between the lower and middle rib is in the middle of the rib end, and not mitred as it would be had it been made around a mould. Also the last couple of mm being sort of chamfered, to make the rib end look less massive is typical. The inside of the instrument seems (from your pictures) to have the familiar greyish stain, that we are familiar wit on these violins. I would avoid wanting to make authentication calls based on varnish, since you will find yourself barking up the wrong tree quite quickly

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