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tango
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Hi Nathan


Do you say that I can make the center joint with my #5 stanley?
I have a little stanley low angle plane for the second stage (little catenary)

I am working on the Stanley reducing the gap behind the iron but it is a very slow and hard work. I use #60 sand paper for the moment and then will grow up to #120 - #240 and finaly to #400.

I made aceptable joints on violins and violas but on cellos ...mmm for the moment they win !!! :) 
I stopped the built of the cello until set up correctly the tools.

Thanks Nathan for the advice, always gentle.
Regards
Tango

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2 hours ago, tango said:

Hi Nathan


Do you say that I can make the center joint with my #5 stanley?
I have a little stanley low angle plane for the second stage (little catenary)

I am working on the Stanley reducing the gap behind the iron but it is a very slow and hard work. I use #60 sand paper for the moment and then will grow up to #120 - #240 and finaly to #400.

I made aceptable joints on violins and violas but on cellos ...mmm for the moment they win !!! :) 
I stopped the built of the cello until set up correctly the tools.

Thanks Nathan for the advice, always gentle.
Regards
Tango

Hi Tango,

I tend to archive a lot of notes for making. I followed Nathan's advice for joining the cello top plate and it worked well.

To Save Nathan time explaining, here are his words from a previous thread:

 

I hold it [600 mm jointer plane] upside down in the bench vise and shoot the joint in one pass.

For cellos I rough them straight then use a record 9  1/2 with a very slightly convex blade and plane a slight catenaric hollow lengthwise and a much slighter hollow  across. I put one end of the half plate in the vise rest the other end on a stool and put the second piece on top so I can feel for any wind in the joint and when it feels right and I can just barely see the shine of a floodlight held behind the joint I clamp the two halves together with one finger tightened bar clamp in the center. Then I use a strong light to check both sides of the joint and when it looks perfect I glue using three bar clamps tightening the middle one first before putting on the others. "Hundreds made and none have failed".

In other notes I have, the joint should be sprung evenly from the center with the light shining through approximately 1/4 the length of the joint. I used these direction along with Nathan's method. I'm curious what @nathan slobodkin thinks about this addition.

Thanks,

Jim

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Jim,

Thanks for the expanded version of my method I knew I had described it before but couldn't find it when needed. By moving a strong flood light behind the joint and looking straight through I can see light diminishing from the center and disapearing about 6" from the ends. This is with the top half just set on the other with no clamp.

The feel of the joint is also very important. With the lower part held with one end in the vise and the other supported the top half can be rocked at each end and there will be a noticeable wobble if there is even the slightest  twist in the joint. I don't clamp the lower part in the center because that can actually warp the lower half and give a false reading of the twist or lack of it. 

Tango, 

The corrected, well tuned #5 and a 6 inch block plane should work fine. The key is to look very carefully and don't glue until it is really perfect.

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I use the upside down method and it is key to have the blade set perfectly. I have a wooden plane so it has to be set every time,   twenty minutes or so to set the blade to my satisfaction and maybe five to finish the joint. Also testing edge on flat glass for rocking helps, you can be chasing your tail if you aren't sure which side is at fault.

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On 6/15/2021 at 1:49 AM, HoGo said:

Do you think Strad's or Amati's wooden planes were straighter than this? Today's violin makers seem to be posessed with precision of aircraft engineers using granite slabs flat to 0.000something for assesing flatnes of rib cage. Ain't that ironic when you look at the crude tools of the old guys the modern makers are trying to copy. :-)

I'd say just sharpen it and give it a go at some maple ro similar hardwood. You will see the result in wood. Of course much depends on your skill. Sometimes beginners cannot get good results with perfectly flat Veritas or LN plane.

BTW what is it? Looks like Stanley#5 or such.

Strad and Amati made the best use of what they had available in their time. However, why make life more difficult for yourself by using tools that are sub-standard in today's world?

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On 6/15/2021 at 11:36 PM, tango said:

 more...

The space ahead in my big wooden plane iron is very large (8,5 mm aprox)
Is this a problem?

cepillo madera.jpg

Hello Tango, I found the mouth in my homemade plane was becoming wide. Here are a couple of pictures I took when i remouthed it last year. I used a piece of beech, as my plane is beech, and tried to orient the grain to match the plane body so they would hopefully shrink/move at the same rates. Here the new mouth wood is ready to be glued

P1050959.JPG

Here I have glued it and clamped it into place

P1050964.JPG

Here it is after planing flat, ready to use

P1050966.JPG

This shape of mouth 'patch' seems popular here in England. I am sure you will easily find good advice on how to do this in the internet or in old joinery books

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10 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

Hello Tango, I found the mouth in my homemade plane was becoming wide. Here are a couple of pictures I took when i remouthed it last year. I used a piece of beech, as my plane is beech, and tried to orient the grain to match the plane body so they would hopefully shrink/move at the same rates. Here the new mouth wood is ready to be glued

P1050959.JPG

Here I have glued it and clamped it into place

P1050964.JPG

Here it is after planing flat, ready to use

P1050966.JPG

This shape of mouth 'patch' seems popular here in England. I am sure you will easily find good advice on how to do this in the internet or in old joinery books

Nice job

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Wooden planes can be just about as accurately made as steel ones. But old bevel-down versions with tapered irons can have a lot of problems which can make them hard to adjust. Also they have a high centre of gravity which doesn't help.

Bevel-up wooden planes can be made more easily and don't have those sort of problems.

I don't think it is wise to use anything larger than a number 4 to plane violin centre joints. And I doubt it would be necessary to use anything larger than a number 8 on cellos.

Creating anything other than flat glueing surfaces doesn't make sense to me. I doubt that clamping would close up a purposely made gap on a violin let alone a cello.

 

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On 6/15/2021 at 4:34 AM, tango said:

Hi

How flat must be a plane sole for center joint wood work? 
This plane have a gap less than 0,08 mm.

This 0,08mm is the thinnest metal sheet I have to measure and I can´t pass through the gap. The light seem as it would be higer but not.
Must I continue flattening the sole as I can?

cepillo concavidad.jpg

It should be a bit flatter in my opinion, I would aim for a gap of less than 0.2 or 0.1 mm. Especially if you are going to use it for the center joint. You can do that with a granite surface plate and some 120 grit sandpaper. But this will take a while. This is why I prefer a wooden jointer because you can flatten the sole way faster than you would a metal plane, plus you can use other methods to flatten it such as a smoothing plane (this takes some practice). 

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10 hours ago, Dennis J said:

Wooden planes can be just about as accurately made as steel ones. But old bevel-down versions with tapered irons can have a lot of problems which can make them hard to adjust. Also they have a high centre of gravity which doesn't help.

Bevel-up wooden planes can be made more easily and don't have those sort of problems.

I don't think it is wise to use anything larger than a number 4 to plane violin centre joints. And I doubt it would be necessary to use anything larger than a number 8 on cellos.

Creating anything other than flat glueing surfaces doesn't make sense to me. I doubt that clamping would close up a purposely made gap on a violin let alone a cello.

 

This discussion has been made many times. I have made hundreds of instruments with no joint failures and counting the other guys I worked with who also use this method that number goes into the thousands. Flat wooden surfaces are no longer flat once glue is applied. If you glue size and replane the joints (I don't) then perhaps a dead flat surface might work but as I said the method I have described has worked well for me for the past 35 years and I see no reason to do otherwise. I don't question others with long experience who use other methods but when some one asks for advice I feel comfortable telling them what works for me.

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How anyone could prove that glue applied to a flat glueing surface distorts that surface is a mystery to me.

Saying that surfaces need to be curved and clamped after glueing is tantamount to saying that perfectly matched flat surfaces cannot achieve a perfect glue joint. And that is just baloney.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Dennis J said:

How anyone could prove that glue applied to a flat glueing surface distorts that surface is a mystery to me.

Saying that surfaces need to be curved and clamped after glueing is tantamount to saying that perfectly matched flat surfaces cannot achieve a perfect glue joint. And that is just baloney.

 

 

It's pretty easy to prove. All you have to do is apply glue to the flat surface let it dry and then put a straight edge on it.

I am not saying it is impossible to make a joint with a straight flat surface but I think all of us have seen many joints which have come open at the ends and it's pretty hard to believe they were planed that way before gluing.

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2 hours ago, Dennis J said:

How anyone could prove that glue applied to a flat glueing surface distorts that surface is a mystery to me.

Saying that surfaces need to be curved and clamped after glueing is tantamount to saying that perfectly matched flat surfaces cannot achieve a perfect glue joint. And that is just baloney.

 

 

If I recall correctly, in another thread you stated that you were not a maker. Making assertions that a method is factual when it is theoretical on your part is irresponsible, and can lead folks who are learning to make instruments into making costly mistakes. 

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1 hour ago, Jim Bress said:

If I recall correctly, in another thread you stated that you were not a maker. Making assertions that a method is factual when it is theoretical on your part is irresponsible, and can lead folks who are learning to make instruments into making costly mistakes. 

No I'm not a full time maker. However apart from general woodwork I have a lot of experience with woodworking tools as well as making violins and joining plates to know what is necessary to glue violin plates successfully.

I work things out for myself, and I'm confident that the often repeated methodology around plate gluing is an unnecessary complication of what should be a simple, straightforward process. Planing a joint surface flat and handling tools is difficult enough for a beginner without making the process even more difficult for no logical reason.

The whole concept is just woodworking myth.

 

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4 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

 all of us have seen many joints which have come open at the ends and it's pretty hard to believe they were planed that way before gluing.

I think it's because the ends dry first and shrink, while the center area is still wet and swollen.

A good reason for using clamps.

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If you use clamps you can plane dead flat. But tiny gap in the center can help keeping the ends closed when center clamp is tightened first and the end clamps added after that. I experimented with clamping order and even when the dry wood mated perfectly when dry clamped on one end only, after rubbing the joint with glue and end clamp added the other end opened visibly presumably because the added moisture. So I prefer application of two clamps simultaneously on both ends and then add third in the center.

If you intend to use rubbed joint with no clamps you'd better plane some hollow into the joint.

 

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I found very early on that checking planing progress with a straight edge was the only way to go.

And I found that whatever plane I used the cut was deeper at the end of the stroke. To compensate for that I used a smaller block plane to hollow out the middle of the cut a little and then finished using a larger plane with one long stroke.

That often results in the last inch or so still low. In that case I sometimes leave it as is if I have plenty of waste length in the wedges. And after the glue has set a wider glue line is noticeable.

So I don't worry about light shining through at one or both ends, only in the central area.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dennis J said:

No I'm not a full time maker. However apart from general woodwork I have a lot of experience with woodworking tools as well as making violins and joining plates to know what is necessary to glue violin plates successfully.

I work things out for myself, and I'm confident that the often repeated methodology around plate gluing is an unnecessary complication of what should be a simple, straightforward process. Planing a joint surface flat and handling tools is difficult enough for a beginner without making the process even more difficult for no logical reason.

The whole concept is just woodworking myth.

 

Dennis, your definition of a 'good joint" may not be the same as Nathan's.

6 hours ago, Dennis J said:

 

And I found that whatever plane I used the cut was deeper at the end of the stroke.

Then either you haven't used a good plane, or you don't know how to use it properly.

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Joining plates is a skill set I am still working on becoming better. But I have decided to "rub" my plates together and then with no clamps or external forces let the seam dry. This has been a bit scary at times but so far works well. Why do this? I have a somewhat unproven idea that violins sound better after they are played because internal stress and strain gets worked out and relax as the violin is played. If this is true why build into the plates the bending strain resulting from clamps forcing two surfaces together? So, I plane the plates as flat as I can and join the two halves without any extra force applied thru clamping. Is this important, does this make sense?

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3 hours ago, Greg Sigworth said:

Joining plates is a skill set I am still working on becoming better. But I have decided to "rub" my plates together and then with no clamps or external forces let the seam dry. This has been a bit scary at times but so far works well. Why do this? I have a somewhat unproven idea that violins sound better after they are played because internal stress and strain gets worked out and relax as the violin is played. If this is true why build into the plates the bending strain resulting from clamps forcing two surfaces together? So, I plane the plates as flat as I can and join the two halves without any extra force applied thru clamping. Is this important, does this make sense?

Of course it does. But I wouldn't think clamping pressure would be particularly significant as far as plates are concerned. I don't think there would be any significant residual stresses left after clamping because the gap being closed is so small.

And, as I've said, I don't think clamping would close such a gap anyway.

But, as far as stresses are concerned, I think things like installing purfling after the plates are glued to the ribs might be something worth exploring.

 

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