Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Can we talk about f holes?


Brumcello
 Share

Recommended Posts

The shape of f holes, as i understand it, it an important part of assessing a violin (or cello) and I am just beginning to see some differences. I'm sure there are some characteristics that experts home in on which are totally missed by people like me. Obviously Strad vs Guarneri  are different (examples attached) but are there features that point to other schools? I have heard mention of whether the holes are circular or whether the edge of the holes are cut back (chamfered away from the opening). Interested to hear any thoughts

A Guarneri.JPG

Strad.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are many things to talk about in sound holes.  The basic geometry is stable from the Brothers Amati updating their father's sound hole geometry until final late Del Gesu makes changes in the arcs extending out from the eyes.

But there's lots of subtle tinkering in applying the geometry through the generations of Cremona makers. 

I say sound holes because across the broader history of N Italian bowed strings, the early style f hole style of A Amati and Zanetto is exactly the C hole shape geometry with the lower half of the C flipped around symmetrically.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks David. Yes, "sound holes" is probably a better term. I am aware that the earlier instruments had C shaped sound holes. I also have read that the shape and size of the sound holes has an impact on sound. What I am unclear about is issues like undercut holes or darkened internal edges. Can anything be inferred from these features

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more I think about it, the more I think your original question is tantamount to an invitation to write a dissertation. Mulling it over, I could even write a chapter just on the f nicks. In a month where there are the European football championships on the telly every day, I doubt you will find any volunteers:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought that might be the case Jacob. It's the problem of someone with almost zero knowledge on a subject asking a naive question I suppose. I am certainly not expecting anyone to write me a thesis. But from my current level of awareness even the fact the experts infer something from the nicks is a revelation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can name some of the late Strads that I see there, including the Jack Benny, so I'm guessing a mix of Francesco and Omobono? There are a couple repeated in the group.

My guesses on the second group would be: something formerly known as a da Salo that looks much later to me, a real da Salo, a small del Gesu that isn't the Chardon, an Andrea Amati, Zanetto, something Mantuan (Peter of Mantua or maybe a better Zanotti or Camilli), and something Stainer-related, but I'm really in the weeds on those.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Three13 said:

I can name some of the late Strads that I see there, including the Jack Benny, so I'm guessing a mix of Francesco and Omobono?

There are a couple repeated in the group.

Sorry about that!

My guesses on the second group would be: something formerly known as a da Salo that looks much later to me, a real da Salo, a small del Gesu that isn't the Chardon, an Andrea Amati, Zanetto, something Mantuan (Peter of Mantua or maybe a better Zanotti or Camilli), and something Stainer-related, but I'm really in the weeds on those.

I'm impressed,,,

you know your stuff for sure,,

yes strad workshop,,,

and the second set, correct again, I agree that the formerly da salo isn't, but?

del gesu fountain 1740

Yes Mantuan,, Antonio Zanotti  1732,

I think the last one is supposed to be a real Stainer,, don't know,, I just grabbed the shot that I liked.

I certainly could not Identify them all that well,,, and I wasn't playing a game,,, just too lazy to type all the names,,,

Ha,Ha,Ha! Why not have a bit of fun!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Evan Smith said:

I'm impressed,,,

you know your stuff for sure,,

yes strad workshop,,,

and the second set, correct again, I agree that the formerly da salo isn't, but?

del gesu fountain 1740

Yes Mantuan,, Antonio Zanotti  1732,

I think the last one is supposed to be a real Stainer,, don't know,, I just grabbed the shot that I liked.

I certainly could not Identify them all that well,,, and I wasn't playing a game,,, just too lazy to type all the names,,,

Ha,Ha,Ha! Why not have a bit of fun!

A Zanotti! He’s my favorite mystery soldier in the Cremonese fiddle mafia. I’d love to know more about him - clearly trained by an Amati or a Guarneri, claimed to be a student of Girolamo Amati, but sort of pops up to take over when Pietro I dies. Anybody know much more about him?

I wonder about the not-da Salo. I think the fancy 5-ply purfling is a clue. I sort of want to pretend Tony S or his former employer did the fancy carving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Three13 said:

A Zanotti! He’s my favorite mystery soldier in the Cremonese fiddle mafia. I’d love to know more about him - clearly trained by an Amati or a Guarneri, claimed to be a student of Girolamo Amati, but sort of pops up to take over when Pietro I dies. Anybody know much more about him?

only what tariso sayes, very stylish maker for sure

Quote

I wonder about the not-da Salo. I think the fancy 5-ply purfling is a clue. I sort of want to pretend Tony S or his former employer did the fancy carving.

It is a very clean little box for sure.

I have only ruined an f-hole once when cutting it,, knife was super sharp and,,, boom!,,took way to much out of the inside lower sweep,bass f,,, looked real nasty.

This was even on a del gesu, and I didn't have the guts just to hack it up and leave it to rough work,(I can get pretty rough at times). So I let it lie and worked on other things. After a long time I was look-in through the black del gesu books and I saw the Kortschak, and I wondered and went wow!,, DG made the same mistake,, I made a templet and put it over my mistake and it covered it perfectly! It is thought that he was sloppy and haphazard, this is not true, there is some roughness here and there, but the lower sweeps on his f's are fairly constant,, the Kortschak was a mistake and he recovered beautifully from it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

 

764993031_kortschak.JPG.5f5de4cbfecd574fe246802cc9194654.JPG1555130532_kortschakevan.JPG.cdffab4a1a45be6dac538ab9910b193b.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Three13 said:

A Zanotti! He’s my favorite mystery soldier in the Cremonese fiddle mafia. I’d love to know more about him - clearly trained by an Amati or a Guarneri, claimed to be a student of Girolamo Amati, but sort of pops up to take over when Pietro I dies. Anybody know much more about him?

I wonder about the not-da Salo. I think the fancy 5-ply purfling is a clue. I sort of want to pretend Tony S or his former employer did the fancy carving.

Not quite.  That family hails from Brescia.  And there is better cause to believe that Andrea Amati started by copying their work than the other way around.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Three13 said:

I was referring to Antonio Zanotti, the guy who took over Pietro of Guarneri’s shop in Mantua and possibly trained Camilli, not Zanetto. I agree with you that Amati and da Salo may have been imitating the Zanetto and his son…

I have wondered whether Zanotti might have descended from Zanetto, but figure that’ll remain a mystery for the ages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Three13 said:

I have wondered whether Zanotti might have descended from Zanetto, but figure that’ll remain a mystery for the ages.

The story of Zanetto's family seems quite confusing. Depending on what you read, Zanetto is a family name name, or just a name associated with the one member of the family.

Pellegrino, Micheli, and Zanetto are all names associated.  The correct way to associate the names to family seems very muddy.  At any rate, it seems there where 2 generations making in Brescia, 1 generation working before the mid 1500 examples we have.  And it seems possible that both generations made cellos and violas in Brescia before Andrea Amati invented the size range of the Baroque violin family based on a Brescian viola starting point.

You can see that the first style of A Amati soundholes are exactly the Zanetto geometry.  Andrea's later holes are still that geometry, but with straight wing cuts from the eyes added.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...