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Most expensive eBay violin in current results - what is it?


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42 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Apparently not easy, but BoB construction is just one (1) check on a checklist. 

I have never seen a check list for Italian violin ID.   Most of that information  is kept securely locked away in Charles Beares head. 

There is a rumoured book on Venetian violins that he was writing, but whether it will ever appear is another thing. The only way that I have half a hope of deciding if something is Italian or not is by eliminating everything else and what is left just might have a 10% chance of being Italian. 

I think the first step is to sort out German BOB from Italian BOB, there is a difference apparently. 

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7 minutes ago, Delabo said:

I think the first step is to sort out German BOB from Italian BOB, there is a difference apparently. 

Maybe not so much, and certainly not if the Italian maker was importing rib garlands from Germany. :lol:

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19 minutes ago, Delabo said:

I have never seen a check list for Italian violin ID.   Most of that information  is kept securely locked away in Charles Beares head. 

There is a rumoured book on Venetian violins that he was writing, but whether it will ever appear is another thing. The only way that I have half a hope of deciding if something is Italian or not is by eliminating everything else and what is left just might have a 10% chance of being Italian. 

I think the first step is to sort out German BOB from Italian BOB, there is a difference apparently. 

When we think about "German" violins we are largely thinking about Mittenwald or Markneukirchen, two schools of making where the practitioners all lived within a few miles of each other. With French making we are largely talking about Mirecourt, also a very small town with a very characteristic style, or else Paris - taking into account that most Parisian violins were actually made in Mirecourt or by Mirecourt trained artisans, that's also a very small and incestuous tradition.

With Italian violins we have many urban centres of making and also a lot of provinicial makers whose violins are worth being able to identify just because the Italian label adds a zero to the price.

If you want a checklist of Venetian features, Neapolitan features, or Cremonese features that's not hard to do nor is it any kind of secret, but there really is no such thing as a standard Italian violin.

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

When we think about "German" violins we are largely thinking about Mittenwald or Markneukirchen, two schools of making where the practitioners all lived within a few miles of each other. With French making we are largely talking about Mirecourt, also a very small town with a very characteristic style, or else Paris - taking into account that most Parisian violins were actually made in Mirecourt or by Mirecourt trained artisans, that's also a very small and incestuous tradition.

With Italian violins we have many urban centres of making and also a lot of provinicial makers whose violins are worth being able to identify just because the Italian label adds a zero to the price.

If you want a checklist of Venetian features, Neapolitan features, or Cremonese features that's not hard to do nor is it any kind of secret, but there really is no such thing as a standard Italian violin.

That, to me, is one of the "check boxes" for Italian (also see below), which should start one digging on other indicators of provenance.  To my limited knowledge, Italy has never (until very recent times, anyway; now there are rumors....) had centers for the production of thousands of virtually identical trade fiddles annually, like Markneukirchen, Mirecourt, Bubenreuth, Reghin, or the several large producers in China.  "Quantity has a quality all its own", which can be spotted, with practice, as can the absence of it.

OTOH, lack of sleek uniformity can also be a hallmark of some other areas, like Rural British (otherwise often confused with Markies).  One has to add all the details to figure things out, and sometimes even that fails, as the story about Beare and the "early 19th. Century violin" bears out.  :)

 

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13 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

That, to me, is one of the "check boxes" for Italian (also see below), which should start one digging on other indicators of provenance.  To my limited knowledge, Italy has never (until very recent times, anyway; now there are rumors....) had centers for the production of thousands of virtually identical trade fiddles annually, like Markneukirchen, Mirecourt,

 

You could also consider that the other way around, i.e. that the Italians, after the great period, from the late 18th C onwards were largely a bunch of self taught quasi amateurs

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12 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

You could also consider that the other way around, i.e. that the Italians, after the great period, from the late 18th C onwards were largely a bunch of self taught quasi amateurs

But whose idiosyncratic quasi-rubbish now sells for jaw-dropping amounts of money.  :lol:

I'll also note that Italian violin quality overall has improved greatly since the founding of various schools to resurrect the violin making craft there.  :)

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8 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

But whose idiosyncratic quasi-rubbish now sells for jaw-dropping amounts of money.  :lol:

I'll also note that Italian violin quality overall has improved greatly since the founding of various schools to resurrect the violin making craft there.  :)

didn't stop you buying a really crap one:)

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1 hour ago, PaganiniGuitar said:

About Italian makers and knowing if one is fake or the real deal.

Take a look at this one with no certificate of authenticity… is it real and worthy of buying?

 

https://www.corilon.com/us/violins/monzino-figli-milano-italian-violin

Corilon is one of the Maestronet sponsors, so of course, it must be.    :)

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4 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Please go on spreading that disinformation.  Keeps prices low and availability high.  ;):lol:

Availability of elderly amateur work is always limited. Most only manage a small number, which they can’t get rid of, and then give up.
Too many lying around will clutter up the house, and could get caught up in their walker.

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1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

Availability of elderly amateur work is always limited. Most only manage a small number, which they can’t get rid of, and then give up.
Too many lying around will clutter up the house, and could get caught up in their walker.

My commiserations to you.

Don't get down hearted and give  up, just  keep trying,  you are sure to sell one eventually ! :lol:

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5 hours ago, PaganiniGuitar said:

About Italian makers and knowing if one is fake or the real deal.

Take a look at this one with no certificate of authenticity… is it real and worthy of buying?

 

https://www.corilon.com/us/violins/monzino-figli-milano-italian-violin

Monzino was a musical instrument dealer not a maker. They sold a huge range of instruments, some made by Antoniazzi and Parravicini, others of very poor quality made by people whose names are thankfully not recorded ...

I would not feel confident offering a violin like this without an independent certificate, but different strokes for different folks!

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On 6/13/2021 at 6:04 AM, martin swan said:

I'm flattered to be described as any kind of expert - I wish I was.

However, this violin does seem completely obvious and I agree 100% with Blank face and Jacob.

Pinched together rib joints off square with the plates, a rather crappy scroll with an open final turn into the eye, slight delta to the back of the pegbox and a crude narrowing to the sides of the pegbox as they reach the volute, very gammy f-holes, and above all the purfling sitting slightly onto a raised edge" - early 19th century MK/Klingenthal/Schoenbach etc, maybe even a bit later.

The wood is nice and the varnish is particularly nice, but still I don't see how such a violin could be worth more than $3-4000 without a nice name and a reliable certificate, and the work simply isn't good enough for that.

With regard to the f-holes, it doesn't make much sense to talk about placement without considering the width of the table at this point. It seems to me that these awful f-holes are the right distance from the strings, but rendered even more comical by the extreme narrowness of the violin's waist.

I cant see anything at all which would point in an Italian origin. 

Whether the seller is within his rights to profit from the toxic combination of avarice and naivety displayed by Ebay buyers is a different question. It would be quite interesting to discuss that question in the abstract ie. not in the context of a particular seller or instrument.

 

If anything, Martin, you are an expert at writing quite interesting and well-worded posts. I appreciate it, cheers. 

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