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Most expensive eBay violin in current results - what is it?


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An excellent condition Klingenthal 18th century violin might be worth $5-10,000 tops full retail IMHO, but I stand by to be corrected by Jacob although he never likes to give monetary figures

the whole auction smacks of shill bidding, have a look at the bidding history, is it the same people bidding over and over, that's a warning sign.

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2 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

An excellent condition Klingenthal 18th century violin might be worth $5-10,000 tops full retail IMHO, but I stand by to be corrected by Jacob although he never likes to give monetary figures

the whole auction smacks of shill bidding, have a look at the bidding history, is it the same people bidding over and over, that's a warning sign.

Thanks for putting a number to it.

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51 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

the whole auction smacks of shill bidding, have a look at the bidding history, is it the same people bidding over and over, that's a warning sign.

That is what an eBay bidding war looks like.

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5 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Because the two top experts in this thread said it was German, that's good enough for me, that edgework is typically German in my experience, but I'm not an expert, Blank face and Jacob are

17 hours ago, Blank face said:

Looks to me like something from Klingenthal, Hoyer or Hopf family.

That was a reasonable but not definitive statement from Blankface. And Mr. Saunders did not comment to say what he thought it was at all. 

But I am asking you specifically why you are so certain it is not Italian. And since you are so certain that shill bidding was on-going, you should be able to back-up that assertion.

I don't know what that violin is for certain. It could very well be Italian from an obscure northern Italian maker. I was hoping that you could enlighten me as to why it is not, since you are always so cocksure of your opinions.

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8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Take a deep breath perhaps. If I were Jeffrey, I would shift this thread to the Auction scroll, which is what it is for. Selling (if it actually was) a misrepresented Klingenthaler violin for an outrageous price is evidently fraudulent behaviour, so talk of “defamation” is out of place.

What part of Klingenthaler do you not understand George

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1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

What part of Klingenthaler do you not understand George

What part of "if it actually was" do you not understand, Mr. Various?

Pretty clear now that you can't answer either of my questions that I asked you directly.

Thanks for playing.

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15 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

What part of "if it actually was" do you not understand, Mr. Various?

Pretty clear now that you can't answer either of my questions that I asked you directly.

Thanks for playing.

if it actually was refers to whether it actually was selling for $21,000 not if it actually was Klingenthal, what part of that do you not understand, If you think its Italian go ahead and bid on it, its sure to come back up for sale.

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1 minute ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

if it actually was refers to whether it actually was selling for $21,000 not if it actually was Klingenthal, what part of that do you not understand, If you think its Italian go ahead and bid on it, its sure to come back up for sale.

I did not say it was Italian, and Mr. Saunders did not say where he thought it was from. 

I do agree with Mr. Saunders that if it was a misrepresented Klingenthal violin, then somebody paid too much for it, but he did not say that is what this was. 

Thanks for playing. I am sure we'll play again someday.

Goodnight, Mr. Various.

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7 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Prove it.

And while you're at it, can you please explain specifically how you know with such certainty that the violin is not Italian? 

To start with the construction, it's a crudely made built on the back, what's visible at the very sloppy pinched together rib joints. There are narrow but deep channels running along the edges with the purfling sitting on the highest point of the edges, leading to an excessive wear making them appear nearly unvarnished. The last winding of the scroll (Hinterkopf) is forming a deep groove with a rough transition.. These features alone are usually enough to tell that a violin was made in the Vogtland/Schönbach region.

Soundholes being very close to the C bout edges, forming a wide chest are another typical feature of Klingenthal models, represented not only by the makers I mentioned, but also Bauer, Meinel, Meisel and some more names could be associated. The soundhole design with inwards swungen upper wings can usually be found there, too. The difference might be, that all the refined works from the early 19th century don't have such a coarse execution of  details, what's pointing towards a making date more from the mid or second half of the 19th century from a faster production in higher numbers.

These observations shouldn't be read as if I knew exactly that it was by maker XX in Klingenthal, such a violin could be made elsewhere in the Vogtland/Schönbach region by any shop, just following the common models. Many of them there were close related, trained by each other, moved from one village to another etc., as it was mentioned many times before.

It's a misbelief to think that all violins from this origin have squarish upper bouts, very many have them also very rounded. Obviously this fact should be pointed out much more often, too.

Allowing potential customers to inspect the violin might sound fair, but in reality the vast majority won't have the expertise to distinguish between a suggested "Italian" origin or any other and will be easily tricked by some skilled seller's used-cars-blabber (s. the decription from the listing). Just as a Maestronet reader one should have enough evidence for this.B)

At least one should consider that the mentioned 5 figure values are applying to the most refined "fine" instruments of a very few named makers and bearing a clear attribution, maybe a stamp or undisturbed label, but not for field and garden Dutzend products.

 

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14 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

I don't know what it is or where it came from (hence the OP's original question), but who here is to say for certain that it isn't Italian without seeing it?

You should also keep in mind that being Italian means having an extraordinary value, and "extraordinary claims require extraordinary prove", usually a certificate by a specialist and reputable expert. Otherwise fraud is a legitimate suspicion IMO.

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10 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Prove it.

And while you're at it, can you please explain specifically how you know with such certainty that the violin is not Italian? 

What a puerile thread. One could just as well demand “Specific” proof that Bass Clef’s Heidegger isn’t Italian.

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5 hours ago, Blank face said:

These features alone are usually enough to tell that a violin was made in the Vogtland/Schönbach region.

Thank you for that detailed and educational post. The pinched ribs and raised purfling were what made me the most skeptical, but the wonky construction, level ffs in the profile, and low arching were some things that made me wonder.

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

You should also keep in mind that being Italian means having an extraordinary value, and "extraordinary claims require extraordinary prove", usually a certificate by a specialist and reputable expert. Otherwise fraud is a legitimate suspicion IMO.

Not saying fraud isn't a legitimate suspicion, however, even certificates and experts can be wrong (or even fraudulent), and lack of a certificate is not proof of fraud. Ideally, in an auction, the presence or absence of a certificate and/or the quality of that certificate should be discounted by the market. 

Furthermore, naive sellers regularly offer violins for sale that they attribute the whatever is written on the label. Naive? Yes. Fraudulent? No.

People get into mystifying bidding wars regularly, even in major auction houses. These are sometimes discussed here in the Auction Scroll, so that itself is not unusual, and is not grounds for fraud (shill bidding!) accusations. 

And on eBay, fraud can be committed by both sellers and buyers. Buyers can sabotage auctions by bidding with no intention of paying, or can experience buyer's remorse and simply not pay. That happens with some frequency, too. I don't know if this buyer paid for this violin or not, or if they returned it or not.

I do think publicly accusing somebody, even an anonymous eBay seller, of deliberate criminal fraud and purposely running a shill auction without offering any proof is wrong, but I suppose that I could be wrong about that, too. Maybe anything goes here. 

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I have purchased instruments and such from eBay sellers who post on MN, and are honest and helpful, but I suppose various people could baselessly accuse them of fraud for whatever reason or no reason at all. 

Disclosure: I have no relationship with this violin or this seller. I don't know who this seller is, I have never purchased from, bid on a listing, nor corresponded with him/her.

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44 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Furthermore, naive sellers regularly offer violins for sale that they attribute the whatever is written on the label. Naive? Yes. Fraudulent? No.

I don't know if the facts are visible in the American Ebay, but if a person is registred since years as a  seller and continuously selling violins for rather high Ebay prices, this would establish an obligation for due diligency; no court here would let them go away with a claim of naivity; not to mention tax obligations BTW.

Of course the other half is stupidness (neither what I would call naive) at the side of the buyer.

 

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6 hours ago, Blank face said:

You should also keep in mind that being Italian means having an extraordinary value, and "extraordinary claims require extraordinary prove", usually a certificate by a specialist and reputable expert. Otherwise fraud is a legitimate suspicion IMO.

Thanks for this little gem of information. Along with your other excellent post in this thread it helps to clear up a little bit the difference between German "bob" construction and Italian "bob". There's rarely a day goes by that we do not learn something from you. Most grateful. :)

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

I don't know if the facts are visible in the American Ebay, but if a person is registred since years as a  seller and continuously selling violins for rather high Ebay prices, this would establish an obligation for due diligency; no court here would let them go away with a claim of naivity; not to mention tax obligations BTW.

Of course the other half is stupidness (neither what I would call naive) at the side of the buyer.

 

Year registered and location as given is available, along with feedback information, including both buying and selling.  Going through these records is some of what I consider due diligence on the part of buyers.  One may obtain a pretty fair picture of the seller's habits from this, such as whether they are buying fake labels on eBay to insert.  :lol:

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The buyer seemed very pleased with their purchase. The feedback say..........

 

"The instrument has a wonderful small asymmetry to it. I saw it in the photo, and it is eally there. Thanks to everyone, and I do mean everyone, for allowing me to have this. Thanks again.
Alte Geige old Italian violin 18th century ...master sound, phenomenon sound!"
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On 6/10/2021 at 5:37 AM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Sorry, ebay listings are intended for the Auction scroll, there is no allowance for authenticity issues, Maybe Jefferey will step in. If you've already bought the violin you could show it on the pegbox, but if you had bought this violin it appears you would be an absolute fool, and victim of some manner of criminal conspiracy.

say what?  so we cannot discuss auction items or ebay items?  I don't think so.  

P.S. I just read Jeffrey's comment.  No foul.

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Just an FYI, my local Craigslist has a person selling a violin stating the same:

Repaired Mathias Heinicke

I suspect a scam somewhere due to the fact that the person regularly seeks bitcoin and has listed the same violin and another by a different Italian maker in several listing throughout the State and bordering states.  Lots of hashtags and other suspicious things in the Craigslist ad as well.

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WOW! What a thread this is… It had gone from the OP putting up an Ebay listing months ago for which he is not the buyer but asking innocent questions regarding the authenticity or value of the instrument but has been met with accusations of being a ‘fool’, an attache to fraud, and or any other accusations not deserved. 
This reminds me of the guitar forum where the authenticity of an Antonio De Torres guitar is scrutinized by the so called experts even though the guitar has been owned by the revered Andres Segovia. The guitar passed on to the widow of Segovia and has high promenance but still they try to debunk it more or less similar to the Guaneri Del Jesu violin recently discovered.

No one here knows what the violin is in question until it is in ones hands and simply calling it a Markie or whatever one wishes does not convey the true nature or origin of this instrument! I dare never to post my intruments here for ridicule by the so called ‘experts’. Some here give worthy assessments while others some give pure fantasy and outrageous descriptions and these should be silent until the real experts and authenticity certifiers chime in. 

 

Edited by PaganiniGuitar
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