Science and "Evidence"

[Peter K-G]

10 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The Hill Bros. Quote a letter of 1638, from Stradivari himself, (Antonio Stradivari his Life & Work, Dover edition, page 177)

"The violin cannot be bought to perfection without the strong heat of the sun”

Interperate yourself

Thank you jacobsaunders, as soon as I'm done masturbating I'll catch the red herring, need an image? (of the first or latter)

[sospiri]

23 minutes ago, violins88 said:

Brumcello said “You are wasting your time and energy. In my short time here I have realised that the forum has some incredibly knowledgeable people but also many who think they know more than they do whilst lacking even a semblance of humility.”

 

I say Well said.

Do you even understand what is being discussed here?

These dogmatic statements go round and round year after year and it gets further away from real scientific investigation every time.

This was Peter's original point. Did you miss that?

 

 

[David Beard]

39 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Yes. I think it's a waste of time. Did you read the comments I made yesterday? Did you understand them?

You are not making a good case.

I see zero evidence presented to say either Strad didn't put violins in the sun, nor that modern maker's should avoid it.

 

 

[sospiri]

2 minutes ago, David Beard said:

You are not making a good case.

I see zero evidence presented to say either Strad didn't put violins in the sun, nor that modern maker's should avoid it.

Now write that the other way around and see how it looks?

[sospiri]

6 hours ago, martin swan said:

Do you have the Hill book ...?

Do you understand what is being discussed here? 

 

[jacobsaunders]

A shame that you are to stingy to buy violin books

[David Beard]

29 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Now write that the other way around and see how it looks?

Three points of evidence suggesting that he likely did put instruments in the Sun, and that it is a good practice with oil varnishes.

You have alternately ignored and disparaged those points.  Ignoring them earns disrepect but nothing else.  Disparaging the evidence yields agreement that the case for using Sun isn't iron clad.

But you have present no evidence at all against using Sun light.

Score:

For Sunlight:  likely used, but not certain

Against Sunlight: No evidence.

[sospiri]

6 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

A shame that you are to stingy to buy violin books

You do know that Stradivari wasn't even born in 1638?

[sospiri]

1 minute ago, David Beard said:

Three points of evidence suggesting that he likely did put instruments in the Sun, and that it is a good practice with oil varnishes.

You have alternately ignored and disparaged those points.  Ignoring them earns disrepect but nothing else.  Disparaging the evidence yields agreement that the case for using Sun isn't iron clad.

But you have present no evidence at all against using Sun light.

Score:

For Sunlight:  likely used, but not certain

Against Sunlight: No evidence.

I'm trying to explain that the quote has been misinterpreted down the years.

The actual quote from Stradivari was about retouching some varnish. It wasn't specifically about his varnishing method. The whole issue has been muddled up and repeated without specific reference.

[sospiri]

23 hours ago, John Harte said:

Context is everything.... 

Absolutely 

[John Harte]

11 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The Hill Bros. Quote a letter of 1638, from Stradivari himself, (Antonio Stradivari his Life & Work, Dover edition, page 177)

"The violin cannot be bought to perfection without the strong heat of the sun”

Interperate yourself

There may be some confusion here.  Firstly, Stradivari wasn't alive in 1638.  Secondly, the quote on page 177, while originating in Cremona, seems to come from a letter written by a Father Micanzio that was one of several coming under the umbrella of Galileo correspondence.  (See footnote on page 177 which refers you to Chapter XI.)  A translation of the actual letter appears on page 242 (Dover edition) under the heading "A fourth letter, dated Venice, April 24th, 1638".  The Hills go on to state that while the Cremonese violin-maker's name is unmentioned, they "cannot but assume that he was one of the Amati family, - most probably Nicolo". 

[jacobsaunders]

12 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I'm trying to explain that the quote has been misinterpreted down the years.

 

There is a similar quote from Jakob Stainer, although I don't know if I can be bothered to look that up for some thicko

[David Beard]

And again, these details mean that we only have a limited suggestion that Cremona makers used sun light cure varnish.

So, again, we have only a likelyhood instead of a certainty.  Though we do have a certain of science that sunlight indeed does help dry oil paintings and cure oil varnishes.

 

And again, we still have zero evidence against using sunlight now, or against using sunlight historically.

 

Translation for Sospiri:

The evidence supporting the idea that Strad used Sunlight to cure varnishes is limited and indirect.

The evidence denying he used Sunlight is nonexistent.

[sospiri]

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

There is a similar quote from Jakob Stainer, although I don't know if I can be bothered to look that up for some thicko

Is it a famous quote from before he was born?

Go on, please dig it out for my enlightenment.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

Is it a famous quote from before he was born?

Go on, please dig it out for my enlightenment.

Why don't you fuck off

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Jacob, your expert advice is valued here!

[sospiri]

51 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Jacob, your expert advice is valued here!

So are you still insisting that this quote is attributable to Stradivari?

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I am insisting that anyone that has ever used turpine, rosin/oil varnishes knows that they will not dry without UV light,and in Stradivari's time that meant direct sunlight, not just heat.

One questions whether you have any experience varnishing violins at all?

[sospiri]

Just now, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I am insisting that anyone that has ever used turpine, rosin/oil varnishes knows that they will not dry without UV light,and in Stradivari's time that meant direct sunlight, not just heat.

One questions whether you have any experience varnishing violins at all?

I have thousands of hours of varnishing experience. That is not an exaggeration.

That's why I have been trying to discuss these ideas since I started posting here.

But as you see, people get ideas in their heads that are questionable. 

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Varnishing violins or kitchen counter tops? So you've never needed  a UV drying box?

[sospiri]

28 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Varnishing violins or kitchen counter tops? So you've never needed  a UV drying box?

Violins. No UV box. Several experiments with direct sunlight, often for many hours. 

Conclusion, direct sun drying is pointless. However, I am in agreement with the quote, which is most likely from Nicolo Amati as John Harte explained above.

My point all along was how these quotes could be misinterpreted.

There is a good explanation here:

https://themessiahviolin.uk/

Click on the link to the pdf files, below the image of the book.

Open Chapter 12

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Well then you're obviously not using a historical oil varnish, so basically you shouldn't even be in this discussion, you're just trolling. Are you actually a violin maker or is this just revarnishing you're talking about.

[sospiri]

1 minute ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Well then you're obviously not using a historical oil varnish, so basically you shouldn't even be in this discussion, you're just trolling.

Are you an expert in the subject?

[Strad O Various Jr.]

My expertise tells me you're probably not a violin maker, and you haven't spent thousands of hours varnishing, anytime anyone says they've done thousands of something, warning lights go off for me!

[sospiri]

I am aware of your proclivities.