uncle duke Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 Then it is all Peter's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter K-G Posted June 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 3 hours ago, uncle duke said: Then it is all Peter's fault. Yes it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 10:37 PM, Peter K-G said: Quite often established "evidence" is the truth. And you don't dare to question The Truth, do you? Roger Hargrave's site is undoubtedly one of the best sites for the "truth". However there are two truths/evidences that are established facts that I want others opinions on, regarding old cremonese violins. 1. The purfling and channel were done after the soundbox closed => evidence: end block pins are under the purfling Question: this is the only established facts base? 2. Most of them (old Cremonese) has been re graduated => evidence ?? The Stradivari Science myth that annoys me is the belief that he dried his varnished instruments in direct sunlight. Where does this come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, sospiri said: The Stradivari Science myth that annoys me is the belief that he dried his varnished instruments in direct sunlight. Where does this come from? Probably Stradivari saying that the instruments require the direct heat of the sun to dry! Its in the Hill book if you don't believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 19 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Probably Stradivari saying that the instruments require the direct heat of the sun to dry! Its in the Hill book if you don't believe me. Exotic-sounding excuses for work delays are as old as mankind. After all, it wouldn't have sounded as good if Stradivari had said that he had just forgotten about the fiddle, or hadn't gotten around to it yet, or that his hemorrhoids were in such a severe state of flareup that he could hardly work, or that Omobono had yet again run off with another trollop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Probably Stradivari saying that the instruments require the direct heat of the sun to dry! Its in the Hill book if you don't believe me. Go on then give me the quote? Without misinterpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Exotic-sounding excuses for work delays are as old as mankind. After all, it wouldn't have sounded as good if Stradivari said that he had just forgotten about the fiddle, or hadn't gotten around to it yet, or that his hemorrhoids were in such a severe state of flareup that he could hardly work. And of course you and virtually all of your colleagues make use of UV light boxes to dry varnish, how do you propose 18th century builders did that without direct sunlight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Exotic-sounding excuses for work delays are as old as mankind. After all, it wouldn't have sounded as good if Stradivari said that he had just forgotten about the fiddle, or hadn't gotten around to it yet, or that his hemorrhoids were in such a severe state of flareup that he could hardly work. He probably preferred warm sunny weather for varnishing. Who doesn't? Isn't it more likely that toni's UV box was a window? And that he didn't hang em from the washing line? That would have pissed off Mrs Strad wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 Glass blocks UV rays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 12 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: And of course you and virtually all of your colleagues make use of UV light boxes to dry varnish, how do you propose 18th century builders did that without direct sunlight? A light box is not necessary, but does reduce the probability of damage from rain, bird poopage, and kids throwing rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Glass blocks UV rays But not UVA which keeps your room warm. And free from rain and bird poopage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 Rosin and oil varnishes of the type we have evidence Stradivari used require UV light exposure to dry in any reasonable amount of time, the only source of UV light Strad had access to was sunlight, later in the 18th century spirit based varnishes that dry without UV light were developed and perhaps became popular for that reason, among other reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 32 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Rosin and oil varnishes of the type we have evidence Stradivari used require UV light exposure to dry in any reasonable amount of time, the only source of UV light Strad had access to was sunlight, later in the 18th century spirit based varnishes that dry without UV light were developed and perhaps became popular for that reason, among other reasons. What type of UV? How much exposure? What temperature? For how long? Don't you think it's more likely that he used the top room of the house. The warmest room in summer and the one with the sunniest windows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 He still needed direct sunlight, the problem with windows is they only provide direct sunlight for shorter periods of time, if at all. Not saying he couldn't have used windows, but I don't see any major reason why he couldn't have used the backyard, or did he live in a bad neighborhood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: He still needed direct sunlight, the problem with windows is they only provide direct sunlight for shorter periods of time, if at all. Not saying he couldn't have used windows, but I don't see any major reason why he couldn't have used the backyard, or did he live in a bad neighborhood? You don't need direct sunlight. It's all part of the myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 12 minutes ago, sospiri said: You don't need direct sunlight. It's all part of the myth. That's total BS, you obviously have no experience with turpine varnishes, do some research before you spout nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, sospiri said: Go on then give me the quote? Without misinterpretation. There's a letter. And, sunlight is nature's UV light box. UV stimulates polymerization in linseed oil ams drying oil varnishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 you might ask Joe Robson if his varnish dries without UV treatment, dried in a few hours in sunlight for me, but without UV couldn't wait long enough to see if it would dry, don't think it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Harte Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: He still needed direct sunlight, the problem with windows is they only provide direct sunlight for shorter periods of time, if at all. Not saying he couldn't have used windows, but I don't see any major reason why he couldn't have used the backyard, or did he live in a bad neighborhood? Strad's varnishes may not have required direct exposure to sunlight to dry. Both lead and manganese are a common theme in his varnishes. While a light box or sunlight certainly speeds things up, in my experience varnishes that include lead and manganese will dry in a workshop situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 But Strad said they needed direct exposure to sunlight, are you calling him a liar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Harte Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: But Strad said they needed direct exposure to sunlight, are you calling him a liar? Context is everything.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis J Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 I remember an article about hooks being found on the top floor of Stradivari's domicile which had large windows or openings. The speculation was that he hung his instruments there so that they were exposed to sunlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Sure sunlight speeds up things but my raw linseed oil cooked with lead acetate/oxide that I made myself does dry overnight in my basement shop with just small northern window even in "not so thin" layer. Thicker coat of varnish made of this would require week or two to harden enough to be used... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mik Kyklo Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 17 minutes ago, HoGo said: lead acetate/oxide Please, can you tell me how you do it? I made various driers but never lead acetate. Now it is time. I have lead from old tubes. I cut small pieces plus -> vinegar (or acetic acid) + Hydr. peroxide? And when the oxide is ready, do I have to dry it and use it as powder inside varnish? I use pale siccative for years with no problems at all - except it is a bit slow / does lead acetate has any difference or it would be a time loosing process? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 I don't remember the recipe or where I got it, (most likely in one of the ld books or internet, though back then it was more likely the books), but I remember the process I did... I just took flat pieces of lead and left them in vinegar for a week till it created "crust" then took the lead out and left it in the sun for few days to dry and oxidize on surface and then scraped all the whitish stuff from surface and repeated few times. I don't remember where I got this idea but I managed to collect few teaspoons of the stuff and the recipe told it is lead oxide / acetate... I mulled it into powder. I guess starting with fine filings of lead would transform them completely faster than this process, but I was not in hurry... Make sure your lead is pure lead, not alloy with tin or other metals (I got 50kg Pb ingot directly from producer) When I cooked the oil, I took refined linseed oil and cooked for 15 minutes or so in gentle boil and added something like 1/4 teaspoon or so per 100ml and stirred/mixed and boiled for another 15 minutes or so. Part of the lead settled to bottom of jar later so I probably added more than needed. I did this more than 20 years ago and still have leftover oil in the jar which is still liquid and dries well when applied over wood (I smeared it with finger without any forceful wiping) You can add this into oil varnish during/after cooking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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