Let's talk about Ground

[Peter K-G]

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[Peter K-G]

Let's talk about giving Joe a modern phone with an excellent camera!

His posted images are, sorry to say, rubbish and does not reflect the true nature of his products

Scrolling through past posts it looks like most makers make better varnish than Joe and that is not true.

Sorry Joe, had to say. In the end this might be helpful to you.

[Michael_Molnar]

13 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

Let's talk about giving Joe a modern phone with an excellent camera!

His posted images are, sorry to say, rubbish and does not reflect the true nature of his products

Scrolling through past posts it looks like most makers make better varnish than Joe and that is not true.

Sorry Joe, had to say. In the end this might be helpful to you.

Hm. Do I hear an echo? 

[joerobson]

6 hours ago, Advocatus Diaboli said:

I guess I’m a bit confused by the visual muddiness.  Over applying will make things a bit indistinguishable, but oil applied well shouldn't do that. 
 

The details of the wood were quite crisp when the (very minimally applied) linseed oil was first applied.  My point was about the aging of the process.

[joerobson]

57 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

Let's talk about giving Joe a modern phone with an excellent camera!

His posted images are, sorry to say, rubbish and does not reflect the true nature of his products

Scrolling through past posts it looks like most makers make better varnish than Joe and that is not true.

Sorry Joe, had to say. In the end this might be helpful to you.

I did get a new phone but the camera was NOT as advertised............

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, joerobson said:

I did get a new phone but the camera was NOT as advertised............

There's also the huge influence of proper lighting, which to me is far more critical than the camera.

This is an example... bare wood, spectacularly flamed.  The upper photo I posted a while back to show what can be done with lighting alone (two directional sources, one incandescent, in a dark room).  The lower one is the same wood, with diffuse outdoor lighting.

[David Beard]

5 hours ago, ctanzio said:

Loss of transparency is due to the production of materials that reflect light before it reaches the wood surface. Good quality, dewaxed shellac and alcohol soluble resins do not have such chemical reactions due to aging.

One can find spectacular French polished furniture in museums that maintain their clarity of finish a great many years after they were initially polished.

One can also find pieces with oil varnishes that had unstable pigments added that aged into a dark, opaque paint over the years.

We humans have a proclivity for inductive reasoning: reaching broad generalizations based on a few observations. I have fallen victim to this more times than I care to admit. 

I'm not saying spirit varnishes always fail, and I'm not saying they are chemically unstable at all.

I am saying they tend to fail in the direction of drying out.  And, because of this they can, sometimes, get milky or less clear over time.

Every medium presents challenges.  And we always need to work balancing completing factors.

 

 

[joerobson]

5 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Hm. Do I hear an echo? 

Is this any better?  Balsam Ground applied 01/2000.  Two different light sources.

[Don Noon]

22 minutes ago, joerobson said:

Is this any better?  Balsam Ground applied 01/2000.  Two different light sources.

I think you're finally catching on.

[joerobson]

1 minute ago, Don Noon said:

I think you're finally catching on.

Old dog......

[David Burgess]

Joe, the "Jiitterbug" smart phone (about 120 bucks to purchase, and 18 dollars per month to use) hasn't been bad, once my daughter bought me some stickers and a case to cover up the Jitterbug logo to spare all of us embarrassment. I'm using the case, rather than the dinosaur stickers.

My wife, who always has the most expensive "latest and greatest" phone, messed with it for a while, and thought it was pretty decent.

[joerobson]

Just now, David Burgess said:

Joe, the "Jiitterbug" smart phone (about 120 bucks to purchase, and 18 dollars per month to use) hasn't been bad, once my daughter bought me some stickers and a case to cover up the Jitterbug logo to spare all of us embarrassment. I'm using the case, rather than the dinosaur stickers.

My wife, who always has the most expensive "latest and greatest" phone, messed with it for a while, and thought it was pretty decent.

Thanks!

[Mike_Danielson]

I was thinking about the use of  rosin or balsam in an alcohol or turpentine medium as part of the ground since some of you advocate it.  Looking at the main molecule, it is clear that rosin does not polymerize; so when you apply it to the bare wood, it penetrates the wood and sits there after the solvent evaporates.  Is this a good thing?  Are there any long term negative consequences?  

Rosin will form an ester with linseed oil and the linseed oil has the unsaturation that allows polymerization to take place which causes the varnish to dry.

Mike D

[joerobson]

23 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

I was thinking about the use of  rosin or balsam in an alcohol or turpentine medium as part of the ground since some of you advocate it.  Looking at the main molecule, it is clear that rosin does not polymerize; so when you apply it to the bare wood, it penetrates the wood and sits there after the solvent evaporates.  Is this a good thing?  Are there any long term negative consequences?  

Rosin will form an ester with linseed oil and the linseed oil has the unsaturation that allows polymerization to take place which causes the varnish to dry.

Mike D

This is what led me to the sequence of applications that became the Balsam Ground.

[Peter K-G]

7 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Hm. Do I hear an echo? 

 

6 hours ago, joerobson said:

I did get a new phone but the camera was NOT as advertised............

 Yes Michael, it is an echo, I'v said it before and it is in good spirit!

Joe, I'm sorry your phone did not live up to its specs!
 

My kids tells me what phone to buy, they have never been wrong! (knowing what I do)

I really, really like Joe! Generous as.... 

I cook my own varnish and he has helped all the way...

[Peter K-G]

These US? Enlish terms still bothers me:

Resin,rosin,balsam, gum, turp...bla, bla ....

What's balsam? turp? (extract of gum, rosin,resin, turp... ???)

It should not be this difficult?

In Swedish it's called kåda, when it is slowely running from the pine or spruce trees. Kåda becomes hartz when it's solid and the turps have evaporated.

So, what's balsam other than gum or "kåda"

[David Beard]

1 hour ago, Peter K-G said:

These US? Enlish terms still bothers me:

Resin,rosin,balsam, gum, turp...bla, bla ....

What's balsam? turp? (extract of gum, rosin,resin, turp... ???)

It should not be this difficult?

In Swedish it's called kåda, when it is slowely running from the pine or spruce trees. Kåda becomes hartz when it's solid and the turps have evaporated.

So, what's balsam other than gum or "kåda"

Baalsaam >> Honey thick still flowing sap very close to as it comes from a tree.

Resin >> Something solid that comes that way usually fairly directly from a tree.  Examples being mastic tears, or Sandarac.

Rosin >> A balsaam like pine, spruce, or larch sap, that has been cooked to drive away the volatile solvent components living a solid resin like material.

 

Turpentine is complicated.  It started of meaning specifically the sap/balsaam from the Terebinth trees on Chios.  Then it became a general term for thick balsaams.  At that time, Larch Balsaam from the PO region became an acceptable substitute for Terebinth balsaam, becoming known as Venice Turpentine.   Then as things continued, the recollect spirits from converting saps into rosins became an increasingly important and available solvent.  And, the source saps diversified to mean any 'marine stores' conifer. Whatever the sap, the distilled solvent is still properly known as Spirits of Turpentine.  But in modern usage, the word turpentine is assumed to mean the spirits.

[joerobson]

I use "balsam" to be the fresh raw pine sap.

Joe

[Bill Yacey]

I call it as I see it. spruce sap is spruce sap, pine sap is pine sap, Balsam fir sap is balsam fir sap, etc. No confusion of terms that way.

[JacksonMaberry]

54 minutes ago, David Beard said:

Baalsaam >> Honey thick still flowing sap very close to as it comes from a tree.

Resin >> Something solid that comes that way usually fairly directly from a tree.  Examples being mastic tears, or Sandarac.

Rosin >> A balsaam like pine, spruce, or larch sap, that has been cooked to drive away the volatile solvent components living a solid resin like material.

 

Turpentine is complicated.  It started of meaning specifically the sap/balsaam from the Terebinth trees on Chios.  Then it became a general term for thick balsaams.  At that time, Larch Balsaam from the PO region became an acceptable substitute for Terebinth balsaam, becoming known as Venice Turpentine.   Then as things continued, the recollect spirits from converting saps into rosins became an increasingly important and available solvent.  And, the source saps diversified to mean any 'marine stores' conifer. Whatever the sap, the distilled solvent is still properly known as Spirits of Turpentine.  But in modern usage, the word turpentine is assumed to mean the spirits.

Good definitions. Thank you. Make sense, Peter?

[Advocatus Diaboli]

12 hours ago, joerobson said:

The details of the wood were quite crisp when the (very minimally applied) linseed oil was first applied.  My point was about the aging of the process.

I understood that.  My point was that I don’t have the same results with aging oil. 

[Mike_Danielson]

Rosin or balsam as a ground is not the same as linseed oil.  At least linseed oil will harden as your chest of drawers shows.  If you are using the rosin or balsam in small amounts as the ground, then why not use varnish in small amounts as a ground because it will fully harden in a short time.  The refractive index is probably about the same for all these.

Mike D

[joerobson]

2 hours ago, Advocatus Diaboli said:

I understood that.  My point was that I don’t have the same results with aging oil. 

Interesting.  I'm glad it works for you.  Many people get good results with linseed oil.

[JacksonMaberry]

14 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Rosin or balsam as a ground is not the same as linseed oil.  At least linseed oil will harden as your chest of drawers shows.  If you are using the rosin or balsam in small amounts as the ground, then why not use varnish in small amounts as a ground because it will fully harden in a short time.  The refractive index is probably about the same for all these.

Mike D

I hear you, Mike. I like having both oil and resin in my ground, personally

[Peter K-G]

12 hours ago, David Beard said:

Baalsaam >> Honey thick still flowing sap very close to as it comes from a tree.

Resin >> Something solid that comes that way usually fairly directly from a tree.  Examples being mastic tears, or Sandarac.

Rosin >> A balsaam like pine, spruce, or larch sap, that has been cooked to drive away the volatile solvent components living a solid resin like material.

 

Turpentine is complicated.  It started of meaning specifically the sap/balsaam from the Terebinth trees on Chios.  Then it became a general term for thick balsaams.  At that time, Larch Balsaam from the PO region became an acceptable substitute for Terebinth balsaam, becoming known as Venice Turpentine.   Then as things continued, the recollect spirits from converting saps into rosins became an increasingly important and available solvent.  And, the source saps diversified to mean any 'marine stores' conifer. Whatever the sap, the distilled solvent is still properly known as Spirits of Turpentine.  But in modern usage, the word turpentine is assumed to mean the spirits.

 

11 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Good definitions. Thank you. Make sense, Peter?

Yup, got it, thanks