MikeC Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 15 hours ago, Michael Richwine said: Anton wrote an article on his ground, After reading that, this paragraph caught my attention and I wonder what you all think of his idea regarding spirit or lac based varnish? I would tend to disagree with this and considering his preceding positive comments on using casein it seems a bit contradictory. The emphasis of most books and topics of discussion is on varnish though. Its function is to protect the instrument, provide a colored transparent film to accentuate the ground, and not be constrictive to the plates' vibrations. The latter of its functions eliminates all spirit and lac varnishes. Those varnishes are as restrictive as a tight trench coat around an athlete.
Jim Bress Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 Isn’t common knowledge that lac based spirit varnishes can run the full range of very hard and brittle to too soft? I’ve definitely experimented with recipes that were too soft, and others I really liked.
Peter K-G Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 Likewise with oil varnish, can also be extremelly hard and brittle.
ctanzio Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 I am always willing to concede that someone making anecdotal claims about what they observed, actually observed something. But I reserve the right to maintain my skepticism when they offer an explanation about why they observed it. Krutz's comparison of a violin top to a mattress spring is one of those explanations. Other than the bridge feet, just what is loading the top normal to the surface? Most of the loads in the plate due to static loads and vibrations are taken up by shear, tangent and bending stress thru the thickness. If a coating is causing interference with these deformations, the coating must be relatively thick, or has soaked into the wood by a considerable degree. Spirit varnishes that are not dewaxed can be very soft. Dewaxed shellacs can be hard and very wear resistant, which is why some people use very thin coats as a protective "polish".
Greg Sigworth Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 I have come across this idea many times when I read anything relating to violins, usually in some pamphlet written claiming to have found the secret to great violins. W. W. Oaks A Review of Ancient and Modern Violin Making is typical. I have no personal experience to prove or disprove. The claim is that violins in the white often have a very good sound which is lost in the finishing process. This may just be one of those ideas that is passed along until it is assumed to be true. Any one have experience in this? If it is true, then what is the acoustic importance of the ground layer? The previous assumption leads to the conclusion that finishes on the violin are harmful to the sound and should limit as much as possible this effect; and it seems to make sense that this is true to some degree. In contrast to this view it seems that the ground may actually improve the sound of the instrument or be very important to it somehow. So, do violins in the white actually have this better sound. Or is this idea just another false idea we consider as true.
Don Noon Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 45 minutes ago, Greg Sigworth said: So, do violins in the white actually have this better sound. Or is this idea just another false idea we consider as true. I have heard that claim, but as usual, "better" is not an objective or universal quality when discussing tone. It's all subjective. My own personal experience and opinion is that unvarnished violins have a distinctive and different sound (identifiably different is usually a bad thing). More than once, I have heard a violin without knowing what it was, and recognized the unvarnished sound... and it was unvarnished. If I had to put it in words, I'd say loud, buzzy, slightly uneven, raw/rough. I feel that varnish refines the sound and evens things out, at the expense of some volume... but overall a necessary thing. If the varnish makes things worse, I'd say either there's too much (or bad) varnish or the instrument was a dud in the white to start with.
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 I agree with Don, raw wood has a more raw sound, and varnish helps the tone, tames the treble and helps the midrange, shellac varnishes not so much.
Michael Richwine Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 4 hours ago, ctanzio said: I am always willing to concede that someone making anecdotal claims about what they observed, actually observed something. But I reserve the right to maintain my skepticism when they offer an explanation about why they observed it. Krutz's comparison of a violin top to a mattress spring is one of those explanations. Other than the bridge feet, just what is loading the top normal to the surface? Most of the loads in the plate due to static loads and vibrations are taken up by shear, tangent and bending stress thru the thickness. If a coating is causing interference with these deformations, the coating must be relatively thick, or has soaked into the wood by a considerable degree. Spirit varnishes that are not dewaxed can be very soft. Dewaxed shellacs can be hard and very wear resistant, which is why some people use very thin coats as a protective "polish". Anton's theoretical explanations don't make much sense to me, but the empirical results I observed were undeniable, and were achieved by persistent, rigorous testing over a period of years. How many times in history has science come to correct conclusions based on incorrect theory? We all know that gravity works, but do we yet know exactly why? In my thinking, results speak for themselves, and I'm content to accept results and figure out the "why's" as time and ability allow.
Don Noon Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 21 minutes ago, Michael Richwine said: Anton's theoretical explanations don't make much sense to me, but the empirical results I observed were undeniable, and were achieved by persistent, rigorous testing over a period of years. Well-performed trial-and-error gets the results; the theories usually are divorced from reality. And in this case, the theory seems fanciful to me, to put it politely. The photos on his website are pretty unimpressive, and having the exact same photo for his violin AND his viola doesn't help either. I see one one on eBay, also not very good photos. So it's hard to tell what his stuff really looks like. Sound-wise, also an unknown... but the description of the ground/varnish seems reasonable to me from an acoustic standpoint.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Michael Richwine said: Anton's theoretical explanations don't make much sense to me, but the empirical results I observed were undeniable, and were achieved by persistent, rigorous testing over a period of years. How many times in history has science come to correct conclusions based on incorrect theory? We all know that gravity works, but do we yet know exactly why? In my thinking, results speak for themselves, and I'm content to accept results and figure out the "why's" as time and ability allow. I agree that it’s a lame explanation, but read (again) Roger Hargrave’s “Making a Double Bass” for insight to the mineral ground. I do like Krutz’s model, however.
ctanzio Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Michael Richwine said: ... but the empirical results I observed were undeniable... Sure. But there is insufficient information for someone else to repeat (or test) the results. Waxed or dewaxed shellac? Multiple coats or one thin coat? Applied as a viscous ground or highly diluted before use? Any number of these factors can account for meaningful changes in the overall properties of the finished plate.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Don Noon said: Well-performed trial-and-error gets the results; the theories usually are divorced from reality. And in this case, the theory seems fanciful to me, to put it politely. The photos on his website are pretty unimpressive, and having the exact same photo for his violin AND his viola doesn't help either. I see one one on eBay, also not very good photos. So it's hard to tell what his stuff really looks like. Sound-wise, also an unknown... but the description of the ground/varnish seems reasonable to me from an acoustic standpoint. The photos are poor. However, I can see signs that he has a handle on a good method. We need better photos nevertheless.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, ctanzio said: Sure. But there is insufficient information for someone else to repeat (or test) the results. Waxed or dewaxed shellac? Multiple coats or one thin coat? Applied as a viscous ground or highly diluted before use? Any number of these factors can account for meaningful changes in the overall properties of the finished plate. Right. But his model makes sense.
ctanzio Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said: Right. But his model makes sense. From what I read, he basically says Ground = color + seal, Varnish = color + protection. No argument there. The materials he uses are things that have been discussed many times on the forum. The "tonal" effects on the violin especially in regards to the use of shellac? Need more info.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, ctanzio said: From what I read, he basically says Ground = color + seal, Varnish = color + protection. No argument there. The materials he uses are things that have been discussed many times on the forum. The "tonal" effects on the violin especially in regards to the use of shellac? Need more info. It’s not due to shellac. That’s why I mentioned Hargrave’s process earlier.
Don Noon Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 44 minutes ago, ctanzio said: From what I read, he basically says Ground = color + seal, Varnish = color + protection. From an acoustics standpoint, I see: no oil + no oil + no oil + oil. Like many makers who put down non-oil stuff on the wood, and finish with oil varnish. Like I do. Should work fine, if done well. I think "oil" is the keyword, and exactly what the layers are beyond that is of lesser importance, and probably less important than how it is applied. I suppose you could find a non-oil coating that is gooey and high-damping, but I'm assuming it's not that. I don't doubt that Michael Richwine thinks the visual results are good. However, I don't know what Michael's or Anton's idea of "good" is, so I don't know if that result is what I am aiming for... and the photos are less than helpful in deciding. If I find a result that to me looks shockingly good and exactly what I would want, then I'll seek out the details of how it was done.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Posted June 10, 2021 FWIW, Brandmair has mineral grounds in the colorless varnish layer. See B&G pp. 74-76. They are colored green in her illustrations.
Jim Bress Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said: FWIW, Brandmair has mineral grounds in the colorless varnish layer. See B&G pp. 74-76. They are colored green in her illustrations. Are the minerals identified?
JacksonMaberry Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 Here's a photo of my rosinate ground on tanned maple, vs untanned maple.
Andreas Preuss Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 14 hours ago, MikeC said: Those varnishes are as restrictive as a tight trench coat around an athlete. Nice comparison, however I wouldn’t say that shellack based varnishes are tighter by their nature. The problem is that in order to achieve a certain color intensity shellack based recipes make a much thicker coating.
Advocatus Diaboli Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 On 6/8/2021 at 8:08 AM, joerobson said: On the subject of acoustics of the ground, I will obviously defer to real violin makers My experience is only anecdotal. On appearance, however, there are many factors to be examined and evaluated. I prefer the "compared to what" approach. In these photos of a dresser I made 30 years ago [I had a commission for 3 so I built 4] the linseed oil finish was a very viscous [like honey from the refrigerator] oil polished on 3 times over 3 days. It has retained its sheen and protective qualities to this point. It has lost the crisp appearance and detail of the wood which it had in the beginning. This is sugar maple so it is harder than the maple used for violins. The capillary action of the wood has drawn out the oil and muted the detail. The other is a detail of the Balsam Ground at 20 years. Each method we discuss will have its up and down sides. on we go, Joe I guess I’m a bit confused by the visual muddiness. Over applying will make things a bit indistinguishable, but oil applied well shouldn't do that.
David Beard Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 Application techniques are everything. There certainly are non classical examples, including some Vuillaumes, where it appears that oil has somehow diffused color in an odd way. But this is only something that can happen under the wrong circumstances. It is not something that generally happens with every use of oil. The main thing to realize is oils and many balsaams will have an aspect of wetting that continues active to some degree for a very long time -- as in years to centuries. Wetting, in a small limitied degree, will aide transparency of particles it reaches, and wood structure it reaches. It can also pull some stains and very fine pigments with it into wood structure by capillary action. These things are entirely good in small doses, and bad if too free and extensive. In contrast, spirit borne material will loose mobility as the solvent more and more completely leaves. If a spirit borne mix doesn't have enough oily/balsaam component, this drying can reduce transparency over time. Good balance is always needed.
ctanzio Posted June 11, 2021 Report Posted June 11, 2021 3 hours ago, David Beard said: In contrast, spirit borne material will loose mobility as the solvent more and more completely leaves. If a spirit borne mix doesn't have enough oily/balsaam component, this drying can reduce transparency over time. Loss of transparency is due to the production of materials that reflect light before it reaches the wood surface. Good quality, dewaxed shellac and alcohol soluble resins do not have such chemical reactions due to aging. One can find spectacular French polished furniture in museums that maintain their clarity of finish a great many years after they were initially polished. One can also find pieces with oil varnishes that had unstable pigments added that aged into a dark, opaque paint over the years. We humans have a proclivity for inductive reasoning: reaching broad generalizations based on a few observations. I have fallen victim to this more times than I care to admit.
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