Let's talk about Ground

[JacksonMaberry]

3 minutes ago, uncle duke said:

lime keeps my varnish cook from foaming/flowing out of the soup can while on heat.  {turpentine based}.

Uncle Duke,

If you can get ahold of some easily, try some zinc oxide instead of the calcium oxide. I think you'll like the results. More durable, dries faster, much more resistant to acids and bases.

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Won't rosin or cooked rosin alone become so brittle and friable sooner or later, that it will turn to a powder and lose its cohesive qualities, resulting in higher damping?

Could be.  If I used rosin as a ground, I'd probably use cooked limed rosin, or maybe super-lean varnish... but I use something else.

[David Burgess]

24 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I did not realize you have devoted so much of your substantial decades to rosinate study. Given that, I would be honored to learn as much as I can from the results of your research. I am interested especially how you came to such different results regarding calcium rosinates. I would like to replicate your method and see if I can come up with the same results. 

Take my comments in whatever way best suits your agenda.

For 100K, I'll bequeath all my varnish experiment notes, and samples to you, after I'm dead. The widder has put up with a lot, at least 100K worth, so my first choice would be to leave this stuff to her, or  to several others who have been  really enlightening partners.

[JacksonMaberry]

5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Take my comments in whatever way best suits your agenda.

For 100K, I'll bequeath all my varnish experiment notes, and samples to you, after I'm dead. The widder has put up with a lot, at least 100K worth. 

Thanks, that's a good offer! I'll save up. 

[uncle duke]

33 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Uncle Duke,

If you can get ahold of some easily, try some zinc oxide instead of the calcium oxide. I think you'll like the results. More durable, dries faster, much more resistant to acids and bases.

 

21 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Take my comments in whatever way best suits your agenda.

For 100K, I'll bequeath all my varnish experiment notes, and samples to you, after I'm dead. The widder has put up with a lot, at least 100K worth, so my first choice would be to leave this stuff to her, or  to several others who have been  really enlightening partners.

1. JM- Though I'm not planning to make varnish this season I'll note what you mentioned possibly for later.

2.  DB - can I have dibs on your old fishing reels?

[David Burgess]

20 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Thanks, that's a good offer! I'll save up. 

Jeez, dude, my mother returned to Walla Walla from college every summer, to work in the pea canning factory, to raise money to put herself through college, and my father shoveled coal in the college power plant.  A generation later, my sister also worked in the pea canning factory, not so much because she needed the money (both of my parents had acquired decent-paying jobs), but to gain valuable life experience.

"Freakin sissy kids today".

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Jeez, dude, my mother returned to Walla Walla from college every summer, to work in the pea canning factory, to raise money to put herself through college, and my father shoveled coal in the college power plant.  A generation later, my sister also worked in the pea canning factory, not so much because she needed the money (both of my parents had acquired decent-paying jobs), but to gain valuable life experience.

"Freakin sissy kids today".

Cool, I bet that was a good experience and opportunity for all parties. 

[JacksonMaberry]

41 minutes ago, uncle duke said:

 

1. JM- Though I'm not planning to make varnish this season I'll note what you mentioned possibly for later.

2.  DB - can I have dibs on your old fishing reels?

For sure! You can also make rosinate with the water process I described in my article in The Scroll. It's a little more controlled and I prefer it, personally. Cheers!

[Mike_Danielson]

Jackson has an extremely high regard for the varnish book by JG McIntosh.  I looked in the book and I can find no instance where he makes an iron rosinate--that is strange since it is such an obvious thing to do.  The rosinates made using cobalt , lead, and manganese, for instance, are used in small quantities  as driers.   Mcintosh makes mention of a cheap varnish using some kind of rosinate--I cannot remember the metal ion used as the rosinate salt.  

I cannot find any reference in the varnish making literature where the entire amount of rosin to make a varnish is presented to the linseed oil as a metal rosinate salt.  In other words, the varnish is a cooked metal rosinate with linseed oil.  I do not know the significance of this difference, but it is greatly different from the traditional making of a cooked oil varnish.  Merrifield's recipe calls for only  a small amount of alum to be added (size of a nut).

My suspicion is that the rosin combines with the linseed oil by esterification during the heating process.  With a standard rosin and linseed oil, the ester releases water which just evaporates from the hot liquid.  With a total metal rosinate, a calcium hydroxide, zinc hydroxide, sodium hydroxide etc (it depends on what metal ion is used with the rosinate) is left behind in the varnish.  I do not know if that product will continue to react with the varnish and have some later, long term effect.  In particular, will the iron rosinate be color stable over time.  ASTM has methods of testing varnish aging and color stability.  

I think you have to be very careful when beating the drum for a new method of varnish making that may have future problems.  Be careful.  Remember megilp and its dreadful effects.  The initial response for megilp was enthusiasm.  You can still find people that like it.  I think Michael Darnton likes using a varnish for violins that is megilp--but maybe his thinking has changed.

Mike D

 

[JacksonMaberry]

15 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Jackson has an extremely high regard for the varnish book by JG McIntosh.  I looked in the book and I can find no instance where he makes an iron rosinate--that is strange since it is such an obvious thing to do.  The rosinates made using cobalt , lead, and manganese, for instance, are used in small quantities  as driers.   Mcintosh makes mention of a cheap varnish using some kind of rosinate--I cannot remember the metal ion used as the rosinate salt.  

I cannot find any reference in the varnish making literature where the entire amount of rosin to make a varnish is presented to the linseed oil as a metal rosinate salt.  In other words, the varnish is a cooked metal rosinate with linseed oil.  I do not know the significance of this difference, but it is greatly different from the traditional making of a cooked oil varnish.  Merrifield's recipe calls for only  a small amount of alum to be added (size of a nut).

My suspicion is that the rosin combines with the linseed oil by esterification during the heating process.  With a standard rosin and linseed oil, the ester releases water which just evaporates from the hot liquid.  With a total metal rosinate, a calcium hydroxide, zinc hydroxide, sodium hydroxide etc (it depends on what metal ion is used with the rosinate) is left behind in the varnish.  I do not know if that product will continue to react with the varnish and have some later, long term effect.  In particular, will the iron rosinate be color stable over time.  ASTM has methods of testing varnish aging and color stability.  

I think you have to be very careful when beating the drum for a new method of varnish making that may have future problems.  Be careful.  Remember megilp and its dreadful effects.  The initial response for megilp was enthusiasm.  You can still find people that like it.  I think Michael Darnton likes using a varnish for violins that is megilp--but maybe his thinking has changed.

Mike D

 

Hi Mike,

I have to defer to your knowledge of chemistry in this case, as I know you have had a career as chemist. 

Wrt McIntosh, he does not mention making an iron rosinate specifically. Michelman does however by a couple of methods, the best of which involves ferric chloride hexahydrate and is enumerated on page 55 of his book. 

One of the reasons I favor Michelman's approach to producing metal rosinates is the thorough washing, by which unwanted water solubles are removed before drying. Granted, this does not account for the insoluble hydroxides. But you do have more control vs McIntosh's method.

I agree that caution is warranted regarding "new" varnish materials and procedures, however McIntosh was printed in the late 19th century and Michelman dates to 1945. These methods are no longer new and have been extensively tested. 

I am very happy with the varnishes I have produces consisting entirely of metal rosinates and oil. I am not suggesting everyone abandon what they like and use to jump on the bandwagon. I intend only to offer the results of my work for all to study and use if they decide to. 

[JacksonMaberry]

Just now, JacksonMaberry said:

varnishes I have produces

Just for DB, here's me owning up to a typo. Cheers, Hulk!

[JacksonMaberry]

I would also like to point out that Violin Varnishes Italy, who is on these forums (Nunzio Dimmuno), has been producing rosinate oil varnishes for the trade for many years. Some of his regulars include Will Whedbee, who I think we can all agree is "no slouch". My varnishes and Nunzio's share a common heritage, but differ on a few key points that can be readily accessed through my recent article. I hold nothing of my own research back. 

[JacksonMaberry]

This series of posts is dedicated to the late, great Craig Tucker.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

12 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Very nice looking. Congrats.

Thanks, Mike. 

[Evan Smith]

On 6/10/2021 at 6:36 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Here's a photo of my rosinate ground on tanned maple, vs untanned maple. 

That looks too dark for a ground from my perspective,,,

[joerobson]

6 minutes ago, Evan Smith said:

That looks too dark for a ground from my perspective,,,

I agree personally.   However I think we need to separate ground and wood color.

[Evan Smith]

Exactly,

The wood can't glow as it is possible to do,,

No light in = no light out

[JacksonMaberry]

Wish you could see it in person, as the still photo doesn't really treat ground/varnish fairly. I can understand thinking it a little dark, though. I'm playing with how far I can push certain boundaries right now.

[Evan Smith]

I've spent years looking at it in person,, and this is too much for my taste.

I know it flashes and changes but, it seems too much too quick.

[Evan Smith]

Maybe this makes more sense.

[JacksonMaberry]

I don't expect to be able to please everyone. I like it and it works for me. I don't intend to "convert" anyone. If you have something you like, that's what counts. Yours looks great, Evan.

[uncle duke]

too orangy.

[Evan Smith]

13 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I don't expect to be able to please everyone. I like it and it works for me. I don't intend to "convert" anyone. If you have something you like, that's what counts. Yours looks great, Evan.

I don't want to please anyone, just learn and share, we all put on our shorts the same way, I let the chips fall.

Your colors do look very nice, I would like to (will) try the rosinate someday,,,

I need very specific instructions though, I'm basically  thick sculled (stupid)

I do have some talent and skill though, of which I am grateful.

[JacksonMaberry]

Just now, Evan Smith said:

I don't want to please anyone, just learn and share, we all put on our shorts the same way, I let the chips fall.

Your colors do look very nice, I would like to (will) try the rosinate someday,,,

I need very specific instructions though, I'm basically  thick sculled (stupid)

I do have some talent and skill though, of which I am grateful.

You don't give yourself enough credit. From what I've seen of your work and the techniques you've shared over the years, you're grade A

[Evan Smith]

7 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

You don't give yourself enough credit. From what I've seen of your work and the techniques you've shared over the years, you're grade A

Slight of hand,,