Let's talk about Ground

[Don Noon]

11 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

If you are using the rosin or balsam in small amounts as the ground, then why not use varnish in small amounts as a ground because it will fully harden in a short time. 

"Fully hardened" linseed oil or oil-containing varnishes aren't very hard, in any testing I've done, and shows up as higher damping.  In small amounts, or very lean varnish, it might not be a big deal, or maybe you want a damped sound.  But for now, I'm trying to minimize damping wherever possible, except for the final oil varnish.  Rosin or hard resins will be harder and less damping than "hardened" linseed oil; balsam (i.e. sap) I have no idea.

[Michael_Molnar]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:39 AM, Advocatus Diaboli said:

I guess I’m a bit confused by the visual muddiness.  Over applying will make things a bit indistinguishable, but oil applied well shouldn't do that. 
 

Very nice looking. Congrats.

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Don Noon said:

But for now, I'm trying to minimize damping wherever possible, except for the final oil varnish.  Rosin or hard resins will be harder and less damping than "hardened" linseed oil; balsam (i.e. sap) I have no idea.

Won't rosin or cooked rosin alone become so brittle and friable sooner or later, that it will turn to a powder and lose its cohesive qualities, resulting in higher damping?

[JacksonMaberry]

Re: limed or "hardened" rosin - it's rosinate. 

Re: damping - some damping in certain areas of the frequency spectrum is really good actually

[Melvin Goldsmith]

13 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Re: limed or "hardened" rosin - it's rosinate. 

Re: damping - some damping in certain areas of the frequency spectrum is really good actually

Exactly...You wouldn't want to drive a 700hp sports car with stiff springs and no dampers!....Damping in fiddles is what makes the bow contact feel good

[JacksonMaberry]

5 minutes ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

Exactly...You wouldn't want to drive a 700hp sports car with stiff springs and no dampers!....Damping in fiddles is what makes the bow contact feel good

Amen

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

1. Re: limed or "hardened" rosin - it's rosinate. 

2. Re: damping - some damping in certain areas of the frequency spectrum is really good actually

1. Should we presume that all roninates are equal?

2. Maybe, or maybe not, depending on where in the spectrum the damping occurs.

[Jim Bress]

8 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

1. Should we presume that all roninates are equal?

2. Maybe, or maybe not, depending on where in the spectrum the damping occurs.

Two interesting topics to flesh out. 

[JacksonMaberry]

12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

1. Should we presume that all roninates are equal?

2. Maybe, or maybe not, depending on where in the spectrum the damping occurs.

1. Of course not! Calcium rosinate is decidedly worse than the rosinates of zinc, iron, and manganese. 

 

2. That's more or less exactly what I said -

[Peter K-G]

5 hours ago, Don Noon said:

 balsam (i.e. sap) I have no idea.

 Thanks, Sap = Kåda = Gum = resin = rosin = balsam, recent learning.

If you like you can use Joe's sap ground (preferably balsam when you like to be fancy)

I'm in the stage of making pine sap varnish, 10 hours cook, before rain, 35% weight reduction, it has now cooled down, very brittle and black-dark sap i.e rosin, tomorrow it's resin again when about 120-150 C. After ~50% reduction I'll add linseed oil and spirit of balsam (sorry sap), then it will be called varnish.

[JacksonMaberry]

3 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

 Thanks, Sap = Kåda = Gum = resin = rosin = balsam, recent learning.

If you like you can use Joe's sap ground (preferably balsam when you like to be fancy)

I'm in the stage of making pine sap varnish, 10 hours cook, before rain, 35% weight reduction, it has now cooled down, very brittle and black-dark sap i.e rosin, tomorrow it's resin again when about 120-150 C. After ~50% reduction I'll add linseed oil and spirit of balsam (sorry sap), then it will be called varnish.

 You clearly misunderstand. You need the tree sap, the other tree sap, and the seed sap to make the sap. I'm sure it's much easier in Swedish, like everything else, but do give it a proper try won't you? ;-)

[Peter K-G]

9 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

 You clearly misunderstand. You need the tree sap, the other tree sap, and the seed sap to make the sap. I'm sure it's much easier in Swedish, like everything else, but do give it a proper try won't you? ;-)

Yes, in Swedish everything is kåda

 

[David Burgess]

28 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

Two interesting topics to flesh out.

Yup.

24 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

1. Of course not! Calcium rosinate is decidedly worse than the rosinates of zinc, iron, and manganese.

How have you arrived at this conclusion?

[JacksonMaberry]

5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Yup.

How have you arrived art this conclusion?

I have arrived at (sic) this conclusion through several years of careful research and experimentation. The partial water solubility of calcium rosinates, their curing time in oil varnishes compared with Zinc and Iron rosinates being longer, their lesser durability to physical and chemical attack amongst the metal rosinates, all of which I have observed and confirmed in my work, make calcium rosinates a lesser choice than other options.

[David Burgess]

2 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I have arrived at (sic) this conclusion through several years of careful research and experimentation.

 

What is "leasor" (sic) vulnerability?

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

What is "leasor" (sic) vulnerability?

Ask a question related to what I said and I'll answer it.

[Peter K-G]

Limed "sap" varnish can be very hard and before linseed oil it's soap.

The nature of this type of varnish can be water/sweat soluble.

=> do not lime, find another way for what ever reason you had for liming!

[JacksonMaberry]

3 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

Limed "sap" varnish can be very hard and before linseed oil it's soap.

The nature of this type of varnish can be water/sweat soluble.

=> do not lime, find another way for what ever reason you had for liming!

Yep, here's a guy who understands and respects science.

[David Burgess]

8 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

What is "leasor" (sic) vulnerability? Are you in any way qualified go around pounding sand?

 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

David,

I don't understand why you're having such a difficult time with this. As I explained, I have made rosinates a focus of my research for four years and counting now. I have made many different kinds, more than once, and have been very deliberate and careful about my experiments and record keeping. While not a PhD chemist, I do have an undergrad chem background and have PhD chemist friends who are kind to help me with my studies. 

As I have said, and Peter has confirmed, there are certain issues that calcium rosinates exhibit that certain other metal rosinates do not. What else is it that you want to know?

 

[David Burgess]

11 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Ask a question related to what I said and I'll answer it.

Dude, you tried to make an issue of a typo on my end, but will not own your own typo. Lookin' pretty smarmy to me.

[JacksonMaberry]

6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Dude, you tried to make an issue of a typo on my end, but will not own your own typo. Lookin' pretty smarmy to me.

Yes, I made a typo. I am human too. So if I understand correctly, you don't actually care about the rosinate thing and you just wanted to get into a pissing contest?

[David Burgess]

3 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

David,

I don't understand why you're having such a difficult time with this. As I explained, I have made rosinates a focus of my research for four years and counting now. I have made many different kinds, more than once, and have been very deliberate and careful about my experiments and record keeping.

Wow. Four years? Cool. Lots of us have been doing that for around 50 years. You may or may not have some catching up to do.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, David Burgess said:

Wow. Four years? Cool. Lots of us have been doing that for around 50 years. You may or may not have some catching up to do.

I did not realize you have devoted so much of your substantial decades to rosinate study. Given that, I would be honored to learn as much as I can from the results of your research. I am interested especially how you came to such different results regarding calcium rosinates. I would like to replicate your method and see if I can come up with the same results. 

[uncle duke]

24 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

=> do not lime, find another way for what ever reason you had for liming!

lime keeps my varnish cook from foaming/flowing out of the soup can while on heat.  {turpentine based}.